Can you do a proper join up w/o a round pen? - Page 2

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Can you do a proper join up w/o a round pen?

This is a discussion on Can you do a proper join up w/o a round pen? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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    08-16-2011, 07:32 AM
Is she currently in a herd situation or on her own?
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    08-16-2011, 07:35 AM
Shes totally on her own, the only other horse near is a shetland that lives next door.
    08-16-2011, 07:54 AM
Meby see if you can keep her away from the shetland too as shel see the shetland as company when really you want her to want your company most.
I tried walking down Alli this morning. Really thought it would take ages cz she never seems to respond well to that sort of thing but truley, she walked over to me after about 4 sendoffs.

The first time I sent her away the rope from the halter 'bit' her bum and she shot off. After that just the snaking of the rope or waving of my arm sent her away. I'm not saying hit her lots, but if a horse did something another horse didn't like it would get bitten/kicked/butt-swinged-towards. Replicate this with whatever works. Stick with rustly bags on? Anything she moves from will work for walking down - I think :) no expert tho O.o - basically find something she hasn't experienced before and use it to MAKE her listen. Don't stop till you get a response you want. Even if its just a slighlty lowered head
    08-16-2011, 08:02 AM
I don't think the shetland makes any difference really! She can't see her from her paddock / or when I'm working.
& when I'm riding her and I go to the bordering fence to say hi to the bearpony , she's not interested in the slightest!

Problem is she doesn't find anything scary? The only thing that makes her listen/spook her are huge vehicles. I've literally smacked her with all my might once with a crop because she was pissing about when hacking not listening to my leg / kept napping pulling the reins to eat. Not even the slightest response she didn't even bloody notice!
I guess I could try the bags, I have thought of that before no idea what her reaction will be but I doubt theyd be much of one :(
    08-16-2011, 08:08 AM
Oh ok. Alli is scared of shetlands for some reason lol.

Sorry distracted :) If she really is that bombproof then I'm sort of out of ideas... What about loud crashy sounds? Just a random idea so I'll probs sound slightly crazy here but how about a metal dustbin lid being banged? Sounds like a backfiring vehicle?
    08-16-2011, 08:23 AM

Obviously its leadership issues in that you aren't leading her and she knows it. There are many many ways to address this. If (and its all relative) she is truly a very dominant horse, then I wouldnt want to encourage you to try and dominate her physically in a round pen or online.

If she is food motivated then theres your place to start.

If a horse is disrespectful around food or dominant then this is what I do. I don't know if you stable her, but if you do then offer her some food in a feed bucket. Personally I open the door and stand there a few feet back (out of strike range) They have to offer me both ears, upright, focussed on me with no sign of agression. One ear isnt enough. One ear and a hard eye isnt enough. If they step forward I move them back. They do not cross that threshold. They get the food the SECOND they offer two ears and soft eyes with no disrespectful signs or impatience. Even with horses that are fine that remains the cue - its just a daily tune up lets say. If you need to have a stick or whip in your hand tap them on the chest (make sure you are out of the front strike zone) or even use one of those door chain things at first if you need to.

Another very powerful way to set rules is to take feed to the field. Put it down and keep them away from it. You are claiming it. You control it. If she approaches ask her to stop in her tracks. If she doesnt - chase her away however you need to. Take a long rope and whirl it, throw it, bags on sticks anything you personally need to keep a safe distance but make her move. Then go back to the bucket. Keep repeating until she stops when you ask, and offers the same passive expression as described above. Then you can invite her in to the food and move away.

Control over food is a very powerful way to establish dominance, as well as establishing your space, and the beginnings of communication, and her having to take notice of you, without needing to physically fight with her.
tinyliny likes this.
    08-16-2011, 08:28 AM
Incidentally its not that she's not scared by anything. Its just that she reads your intent and so knows she doesnt need to be scared by it. She's secure and to a point that's a good thing. If you have the determination and conviction then she'll move for a feather being waved at her.

Use whatever you need to. Ultimately its you that she needs to be moved by, its you that she needs to come to respect, not the object in your hand. Otherwise she will know to run over you when you don't have a whip. So use what you need to, to get her attention, but focus on YOU. Be strong, be firm, but don't get angry. Anger is weakness and she is more likely to fight that.
tinyliny likes this.
    08-16-2011, 12:40 PM
Horses retreat into a safe place in their brain, zone out and will often take all kinds of abuse as they are disconnected. Take your lunge whip with you, hold the lash and point it downward and behind you. Circle around until you are directly behind your horse but far enough away to not get kicked. Then with energy, run up behind her and stop on the spot she was grazing. She may bolt but won't run very far. Stay on the spot a few seconds then repeat this until she begins to turn and face you with both eyes, not just one. This establishes you as the more dominant. Horses do this all the time. You whip is "just in case" so you most likely won't be using it. When she turns to face you slump your shoulders so you look a little smaller and let out a big breath. Don't move while she is facing you. She may wish to approach, If not try stepping back a few steps as horses often follow what is moving away. If she won't approach you, she's unsure. Wait until she's grazing then circle around and repeat the exercise. If you spend an hour or so doing this it's time very well spent. You are gaining her trust and respect as you assert your leadership.
tnaworld likes this.
    08-16-2011, 12:44 PM
Sigh, I stupidly tried to lunge / lead her over some small jumps today – she is such a pig and has absolutely no respect for anyone or anything when there is grass.
I had the dually head collar on and attached it to a long lead line, bad idea as these stupid ropes seem to have no grip what’s so ever – she was dragging me all over the place if I managed to get her up she would be off again, she is impossible to control.
The dually, the lunge whip, crop, smacks NOTHING matters if she’s on the mission to eat.
I tried with just a normal lead rope and though that gave me more control she was still dragging me and eating and I was finding it impossible to keep her head up, I would walk few paces and then she’s pulls off again to a juicy patch of grass.
Even when I managed to pop over the small jump, she instantly dived to the grass again, bum in my face – its seriously making me angry her pure disrespect is really pissing me off.

She is turned out 24/7 and always has food and treats – hardly deprived. When I give her a bucket of feed she isn’t possessive over it either, I can easily take the bucket away from her if need be and she doesn’t get aggressive.
She is perfectly capable of walking politely and backing up when asked but the minute grass comes into the equation she is like an ox.

Doe, I’ll try your advice about possessive the bucket – She’s kept out in grass fenced in mainly by a electric fence, something she does respect so I guess I could chase her away and claim her bucket of feed by waggling the fence a bit? I don’t really know what else I could do to chase her off at a safe distance.
I just don’t know how I can translate this respect over to leading and then eventually lunging again, she’s going to be re-broken to drive soon as her owners want to get a cart for her – god knows how that’s going to work at the moment when she has no respect for anything or anyone.

    08-16-2011, 12:50 PM

Not totally sure what you mean, so.. at a far distance directly behind her run up - assuming she moved away and claim the place she was at?
I can see how this would work with some horses, but im 90% sure she won’t move at all.
I will try it though, but isn’t this the same sort of concept as join up? What happens if she starts rearing/charging at me again.

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