Can you do a proper join up w/o a round pen? - Page 3
 
 

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Can you do a proper join up w/o a round pen?

This is a discussion on Can you do a proper join up w/o a round pen? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Horse round pen platic bag

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    08-16-2011, 02:29 PM
  #21
Super Moderator
If you cannot MOVE your horse on the ground, then how can you move them in the saddle? Chances are that when the pony moves under saddle it's only becaues that she wanted to go there anyway.

Can you move this horse when they are on a leadline? I mean forward, backward and to both sides? This is rock bottom for horse training; moving the horse in all directions off the leadline.

You will eventually want to be able to do this with your body language.

I bet this horse/pony can totally be moved by body language. She just knows that you are already pretty certain she will not move, she reads your lack of committment.

Go toward her with something in you hand, or a plastic bag tied on the end of your whip and whip it all aorund. I mean move toward her like a crazy man! Fall apart! Go wacko! Make your horse's eyes pop out of her head wondering what the heck is up with you!
GET HER ATTENTION. Once you get her attention, you can direct her attention and her feet and that is what you need to be doing.
jumpingrules92 likes this.
     
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    08-16-2011, 02:50 PM
  #22
Green Broke
You don't want her to move because she's afraid. She should move because you told her to. Ask. Suggest. Demand.
     
    08-16-2011, 05:02 PM
  #23
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
I bet this horse/pony can totally be moved by body language. She just knows that you are already pretty certain she will not move, she reads your lack of committment.

Go toward her with something in you hand, or a plastic bag tied on the end of your whip and whip it all aorund. I mean move toward her like a crazy man! Fall apart! Go wacko! Make your horse's eyes pop out of her head wondering what the heck is up with you!
GET HER ATTENTION. Once you get her attention, you can direct her attention and her feet and that is what you need to be doing.
I disagree saying that I have a lack of commitment, if I hold the pressure up and she gets aggressive what am I supposed to do? Get kicked in the face, charged at?

Its easy enough to say demand and make her move, but I've already tried what your suggesting. She is blind and death to everything when she is intent on eating something she seriously is.
Like how the hell am I supposed to get her attention by jumping up and down screaming at her, I could run right up to her with guns blazing and she would totally ignore me, perhaps kick me in the head and graze over my dead body.

This is a horse that doesn't even notice low flying jets and helicopters whilst grazing, I really don't think attaching bags to sticks is going to get her togive me a blind bit of notice.

She can and does listen sometimes, but the minute she has the chance and the temptation of food is there she is totally over powering I honestly don't know how to stop it.
     
    08-16-2011, 05:58 PM
  #24
Doe
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by replica    
I disagree saying that I have a lack of commitment, if I hold the pressure up and she gets aggressive what am I supposed to do? Get kicked in the face, charged at?

Its easy enough to say demand and make her move, but I've already tried what your suggesting. She is blind and death to everything when she is intent on eating something she seriously is.
Like how the hell am I supposed to get her attention by jumping up and down screaming at her, I could run right up to her with guns blazing and she would totally ignore me, perhaps kick me in the head and graze over my dead body.

This is a horse that doesn't even notice low flying jets and helicopters whilst grazing, I really don't think attaching bags to sticks is going to get her togive me a blind bit of notice.

She can and does listen sometimes, but the minute she has the chance and the temptation of food is there she is totally over powering I honestly don't know how to stop it.
Replica

I appreciate it may be frustrating but it's fact. If the horse isn't moving then she is more committed than you. She feels comfortable ignoring you. At worst you are an annoying bee to her.

I would suggest you get some help from someone who knows what they are doing. However if you are not able then revert to the more traditional methods. (not my preference but good if you are new to horses) You need a halter, and a long rope or rope and whip.

When she ignores you and eats grass, stand facing her but to one side (say her right side) so you are facing her bum, hold the line and walk in an arc towards her loin. If she doesn't move wave the whip or line more and more until she gets a firm whack. When she picked her head up and moves her bum relax. Then move around again. Mke your language very determined, turn your head and look hard at her loin if you need to at first. Then relax when she turns to face you and looks at you. Keep your left arm up as you move around her right side so you can protect your face in case she spins around, also it helps to lock your halter arm out dodge cannot shoot forward and put you in the kick zone.

An alternative method is to walk into her head. Walk at her head shaking the line or your hands (as if shaking eater from your fingers) if she doesn't move then simply walk into her neck - walk through her. Make her yield her front end and turn away from you with the front. You can even walk at her spraying a water mist at her face as many horses don't like sprays or water in their faces (horses usually stand with their bums in the direction of rain)

These are very crude but very effective methods for intial ground control.
     
    09-07-2011, 03:19 PM
  #25
Showing
By moving her, suddenly run toward her and wave your lunge whip and other arm high in the air. If she's still not moveing slap your whip onto the ground. It's the element of surprise. She will likely scoot off which is what you want. Claim her space a few seconds then walk her down again. Don't yell at her but you can make a loud sshhh as you run at her.
     
    09-11-2011, 01:47 PM
  #26
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by replica    
Like what? If your saying hit her I don't see how that would help.
Specially with a lunge whip, she doesn't even respond to a crop..
Your horse is basically telling you to take a hike when she does this. It can into really dangerous behavior! By telling you to use the lunge whip on her, we (the above poster and I) are not telling you beat her as hard as you can, but simply tell her that isn't acceptable. What I do with young horse that try this in the round pen or on a lunge line is to take the lunge whip and lightly let the string end graze their hocks or fetlocks (if lightly grazing doesn't work, do it a little harder until it becomes uncomfortable for them and they get the message). It doesn't really hurt them, simply tells them they better get their legs back under them or the real work will start!
Do you see horses kicking out at the dominant mare without reprocution?? You have to be the herd leader when working your horse and let her know you are pulling rank on her... Its why the herd listens to the dominant mare! She is the smarter one that keeps them out of harms way and she needs to see you as this leader as well!
     
    09-15-2011, 09:41 PM
  #27
Foal
With respect to the many post on respect in this context I am going to offer an alternate explanation for the behaviour your observing in your mare.

Horse behaviour, like the behaviour of the vast majority of animals, even humans, is driven by what results in a good consequence or a bad consequence. Any behaviour that results in a consequence the animal values will be repeated or reinforced. Behaviour that results in a consequence the animal doesn't like or value won't be repeated or will be weakened. This is called the law of effect and it underpins all horse training and horse-human interactions.

In the case of your mare, the food is a consequence which she values very highly. It is known as a primary reinforcer and she along with all horses and indeed all animals, has evolved to seek and consume it. Any behaviour that she performs that gets her to food, gives her time to eat it, or prevents other horses (or humans) from accessing her food will be remembered and repeated any time she either is trying to get or keep others away from her food. Undoubtedly, when given a choice between food and doing what you ask, the food is going to be much more reinforcing than you, the rewards of sticking with the food much greater and so she is going to be much more motivated to do what she can to keep access to the food. Particularly as the things you may want her to do aren't actually that fun or rewarding for her- doing circles in a round pen, going for a ride etc.

It is highly unlikely horses have the cognitive skills to plan into the future- after all they don't need to strategise to eat grass, all they need to do is find it. Consequently, in any given moment they are behaving in ways that they believe best meets their needs at that time. Any tme she has access to that food, that's her best interest met. In order to change that you do need to expose her to a stimulus that is stronger than the reward of the food, and as many people have suggested, that stimulus may have to be quite strong to overcome the attraction of the food.

In effect, you need to tip the balance from food being the most rewarding to doing what you want as the most rewarding in that instance. To do that you will need to apply a pressure so that avoiding the pressure is a greater reward than continuing to eat. Avoidance of pressure is another primary reinforcer for horses and they, along with most herbivores have evolved to avoid it. We utilise the desire of horses to avoid pressure on their bodies as the basis for just about everything we do with them. We apply a pressure to motivate them to change what they are doing, they respond as we want, we release the pressure. The release of the pressure is rewarding, the horse is likely to respond in the same way next time it feels that pressure. From a survival perspective, when given the chance between satisfying the need to eat and the need to flee a predator who is trying to eat the horse, the horse will choose fleeing (pressure release) over the eating. That's what we tap into when we use pressure on the horse's nose, head etc to pull it away from a feed bin.

A word of caution though, in effect all horse training relies on horses seeking to escape pressure, so we need to make sure that when they do respond to our pressure cue as we want them to we release the pressure and thus reward the correct response. If we don't release the pressure the horse is likely to try other ways of getting that release and we don't generally appeciate those other ways as they can involve bucking, shying, kicking etc. However, if we release the pressure before the horse has responded correctly then what ever it was doing just before the pressure goes away is the behaviour that gets rewarded. Your mare kicking out at you is a classic example of this- she kicks out, you back away, she gets released from your presence, the kicking out behaviour is reinforced.
Lastly, methods of training which involve chasing the horse or eliciting a flight response, or making him do endless circles don't teach the horse to respect you, and there is the strong possibility that the horse will form an association between you and fleeing, which is the opposite of what is intended. Flight responses in horses are usually related to fear, and there is now a lot of research suggesting that fearful memories are encorded differently to regular memories. Fearful memories can be recalled more quickly and powerfully than regular memories and the physiological responses engendered by the fear (adrenaline, increased heart rate, increased blood flow to skeletal muscles etc) switch on very quickly. We see this when a horse shies. So we should be very cautious about frightening our horse to get it to do something in case it learns to associate us with fear and then has that memory triggered in another context and when we least expect it. This is called spontaneous recovery and probably accounts for the majority of "out of the blue" hyperactive behaviours we experience with our horses when they buck, shy, rear etc for no apparent reason.

Rather than chasing your horse to catch it, using food (a primary reinforcer) is often highly effective, especially if you give it the food and then walk away. (Can be hard when there are several horses in the field). Advance retreat is also very effective, it is simply a form of pressure release which rewards the horse for standing still by the person backing away a few steps each time the horse stands still. It does take patience and the ability to read the body language of the horse so you back off before the horse starts to move away. I have used it successfully but am too impatient these days and use food and can call my herd of up to 20 horses and they will reliably canter up to the gate for their treat. We have big paddocks 60+ acres each so this is very handy.
     
    09-16-2011, 05:28 PM
  #28
Foal
You can use a regular rectangle arena by fencing off the corners with poles :) This was, it's octagional (sp?) & the horse can't stop in the corners. Next best thing to a round pen!
     
    09-18-2011, 11:16 PM
  #29
Started
Lightbulb

No I don't think you need I roundpen, but I believe it helps. Try attaching a plastic bag to the end of the lunge whip- it works!! If you can afford (which I can't!!) and have enough time to set a roundpen up- get one!
     

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