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Can you have a safe leadership role with a horse without dominance ?

3K views 27 replies 14 participants last post by  Beling 
#1 ·
Ok so im getting really confused because, i believe that there is a hierarchy to nearly everything and every one has roles and certain people/things have leadership, and thats how every one goes about in life because of some people have dominance and others don't and some things are neutral.

So why do some people or you ? Go on about ooo cant be domineering to a horse coz thats mean. And i dont get it coz if your leader than you should have more dominance because horse listens to you. But i realise to be a leader you have to be respected and you have to be thought as a good protector and some one the horse relies on but just so confused and every one talks different stuff and i just say what i see with all animals in some degree nearly every animal uses force to establish dominance to become a leader or who is higher up in the hierarchy and yea i believe in instincts and that things will all ways test the boundaries and try to gain more power so be all nice and all natural horsemanship when instincts can be based on aggression, dominance and power and the will to survive.

So i think that natural horsemanship isn't all nicey nicey you know, coz we need to think what horses think like because they have strong natural instincts and a will to survive.

being blunt here :
Anger is natural
Dominance is natural
love is natural
fighting is natural
 
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#2 ·
People interpret different words differently. To many people dominance is a negitive word, while to others its the same as leadership. to me, a leader is dominant over a follower. To answer your initial question, As I veiw it, no you cannot have leadership without dominance, a herd member that is not dominant over its other herd members is not the leader, its a follower.

in some degree nearly every animal uses force to establish dominance to become a leader
Um, not really. A lead mare will only use force if absolutely nessesary, after several forms of obvious body language fail to get the point across. A wild stallion will use agression on an invading stallion only if he doesnt get the message, and oversteps the social boundaries. As owners, I think the same principle should be applied, asking a horse, telling a horse, then enforcing the command if absolutely nessesary(which it often is not)

being blunt here :
Anger is natural
Dominance is natural
love is natural
fighting is natural
in their appropriate place, and in ballance, yes. Watch a lead mare in her herd. How often does she get angry? I have seen the lead mare at the farm angry once, when she was first becoming lead mare. In the two years since then I have watched her ask, tell, and cooly enforce her possition. She disaplines only as much as nessesary.

life is about ballance, and too much of one thing is never good, encluding the qualities listed above.
 
#5 ·
People interpret different words differently. To many people dominance is a negitive word, while to others its the same as leadership. to me, a leader is dominant over a follower. To answer your initial question, As I veiw it, no you cannot have leadership without dominance, a herd member that is not dominant over its other herd members is not the leader, its a follower.



Um, not really. A lead mare will only use force if absolutely nessesary, after several forms of obvious body language fail to get the point across. A wild stallion will use agression on an invading stallion only if he doesnt get the message, and oversteps the social boundaries. As owners, I think the same principle should be applied, asking a horse, telling a horse, then enforcing the command if absolutely nessesary(which it often is not)



in their appropriate place, and in ballance, yes. Watch a lead mare in her herd. How often does she get angry? I have seen the lead mare at the farm angry once, when she was first becoming lead mare.
I have seen mares, and geldings, constantly go after horses for no apparent reason, my own mare included. I have seen mares beat the living crap out of another horse that had backed down and was cowering in a corner, for no apparent reason.

We would like to believe that we can predict horse's behavior, but we cannot. My friends and I use the term "just got a bug up their butt" to describe random-seeming behavior like that. Sometimes a horse will just take a dislike to another horse and will not leave them alone, no matter how submissive the attacked horse is. You can try to predict behavior, but you will not always be right.
 
#3 ·
Nope. Lead broodmares and lead stallions (and gelding herd leaders) give the other horses one warning, then comes the kick or the bite.
Horses do NOT understand equal. They crave leadership, and will fill the leadership vacuum if the human doesn't dominate.
You must discipline, both your pets and your children. It's the same argument that caused the young father of a 2yo boy who was having a tantrum in church recently, to hand him over to his 9 months pregnant wife to deal with. Really?!? =/(THAT behavior was being practiced at home, I'm sure. Warning to mothers of sons: We ALL know that this goes on behind the scenes.)
They both do not know right behavior from wrong behavior until you insist on it. I like to demand, then praise, then let my horse think about the lesson. It's much easier to do this NOW bc I'm 55yo, then when I first got horses at 27yo. After a few years of such treatment, my horses follow me around the pasture, without treats.
Understand that when you use a whip to extend your arm the horse will react to it and move away. Even if you have to hit an aggressive horse with a whip it doesn't hurt that big an animal as much as it would hurt a human if you did the same thing. They are literally 10x larger than us. I used to kick my horses in the "shins" if they ever stepped on my foot. They understood, but didn't get a bruise from MY little foot.
It is always amazing to me that these animals have a desire to be dominated by people. But they do.
 
#4 ·
I have one mare who is especially dominant. If I am not leading, in her eyes, I'm following and the view never changes. So for her, I am always on my toes, in charge and NEVER give her an inch, she sees it as weakness. Even though I'm in charge, she will still challenge me. She loves to challenge my space, so in the stall especially, I am very demanding. She cannot approach her dinner bucket, hay manger, water buckets, unless I allow it. She knows the rules, I consistently enforce them and STILL she will challenge. When she challenges me, I respond immediately and forcefully and it's over. She'll then admit (lick and chew) that I'm the leader and she'll ask permission and I grant it. Until the next time she decides to challenge. I've only had her a few months so I can't say if she'll ever quit challenging me or not, but no matter what I am the leader and I dominate her every single chance I get.

By dominate her I mean, I will put her in her place just as hard as I have to. I don't beat on her, constantly nitpick her or fuss all the time. When I am around she is to stay out of my space unless invited in, she must face me and have "pretty" ears and show no signs of aggression or anger, and if I ask her to move her feet she must do it immediately, she must not interfere when I handle or work with her colt. And obviously, all the normal horse rules of no biting, kicking, etc etc apply.
 
#6 ·
This^^ I very much doubt happens in the wild, or often with well socialized horses raised in a herd environment.

The herd at the farm is constantly changing, 4 months old to 25 years, mares and geldings, goats, a donkey, from 2" at the shoulder to 18hh. No one picks on anyone a huge amount, everyone is well socialized(20+ horses) The only time we have problems is when a horse comes that was not raised 'naturally', who doesn't know social boundaries.
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#10 ·
This^^ I very much doubt happens in the wild, or often with well socialized horses raised in a herd environment.
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There is some validity to this. However, I think horses can just have a bad day like anyone else. In the wild though, there is plenty of room to get away from an aggressor, same as with horses in large pastures. So you won't notice 'unfair' activities from alphas nearly as often.

In smaller turnouts though, tensions can really build. My own mare is well socialized. She has spent her entire twelve years in varying herd situations. As she has aged she has climbed the heirarchy to the point that she is often the alpha, our herds do vary from time to time just because of the nature of how my barn is run.

When my mare is in charge, generally the herd is calm and relaxed, she is a strong and usually fair leader. Even so, she can have a bad day where she will go after horses that are nowhere close to needing it. I think hormone fluxes may contribute, but even that aside, I cannot always explain her actions.

Some Alphas though are not good leaders, they are more like dictators, going total overkill with punishments, giving no warnings and just attacking right off the bat, or attacking for no reason. Those herds are often nervous, with horses pacing and generally looking unhappy. Again, you see this most in smaller turnouts.
 
#7 ·
Every disciplinary measure has it's place. Don't apologize that you have to hit your horse. You MUST protect yourself. Dreamcatcher's mare probably won many battles in the past with previous owners. Perhaps that is why she was sold.
My horse, "Tyke" (1970-2009, RIP) was THE toughest horse I have ever met..with other horses. Practically anybody could lead, groom, load him in a trailer. It's all about early training, but the later training works, too. Just takes more time to work.
 
#8 ·
I think the first thing to understand is that we aren't horses and they know that. Our biggest advantage is our superior intelligence because we would never beat a horse in terms of strength and speed.
Dominance is about laying down boundaries and being the one your horse relies on for everything so trust also plays a big part in establishing yourself as the 'leader' because the true 'alpha in a herd situation is the one they trust and rely on and not the one they fear and avoid.
Its the word aggression that concerns me more because it has a sense of bullying and even acting in temper about it. You can be firm with a horse without resorting to real aggression, they forgive and understand a sharp tap or even a good whack now and again if they step seriously out of line provided that for the other 99% of the time they are treated fairly and kindly.
If you over do the aggressive dominance you risk ending up with a horse that either fears you and is nervy and anxious around you or one that turns defensive and learns to attack at the slightest sign of what it sees as something confrontational.
 
#11 ·
to a horse, being a follower is usually the most comfortable place to be. So, when we use the word "Dominate" , is comes with human inferrences of quashing the will of another, who like the dominator, wants to be free, and that isn't necessarily an apt way to describe a horse.

A horse wants to follow, to be guided. he is safer that way and can relax a lot more. But, for him to be able to follow, he must know that the leader is a leader. So, he may push out against the other horse/human, to find the boundarie of that being and see if it is strong enough. If it is not, then it will give way from his pressure , and the horse will find itself in a vacuum, and then HE must lead; with all the encumbant stresses and possible dangers of leadership.
 
#12 ·
That was the same, with "Tyke", too, but he had had about 7 owners when I bought him at 15yo, meaning he had lived in many different herds. They were his fans, too, and contacted me about visiting/riding him.
I understand when he was young a pony was the herd leader. Must have been one tough pony.
 
#13 ·
I think tinyliny has it just right - horses mostly need a leader to feel secure and safe which is why so often a nervous rider/handler will make a nervous horse and allowing the horse to call the shots is about equivalent to putting a 2 year old child in the drivers seat of a car
I wonder how many people tend to get aggressive because they are actually afraid, faced with a large powerful unpredictable animal they think the only way to dominate it is to be overly forceful.
I have 5 horses to deal with quite often on my own so the routine has to work like a well oiled machine. I open the field gate and they come in loose and know which is the right stable but every night Jazzie who has one of the first stables will stand and look at me with the devil in her eye like she's challenging me. She's 16.2 and can look bigger the way she holds herself, a lot of people would be intimidated by her and get 'rough' with her to assert themselves when all it takes is a wave of the hand in the direction of her stable and 'Get in there'. It would be too easy to turn this cheeky but compliant horse that loves being told she's a 'good girl' into a nervous one or one that might use its size to fight back one day.
 
#14 ·
Mine come into their stalls unhaltered, too, during the winter. During the summer, I say, "come here", with my halter and lead and let them walk to me. There are numerous training exercises that establish dominance. I agree that fear causes an overreaction, but it's certainly not a crime, just a misjudgement.
I think this is WHY CA is so popular. He is very clear about the steps to take to establish herd leadership.
 
#17 ·
I am all nicey nicey to my horses because I've learned how to read their body language and have learned when to push and when to back off. I respect their space and they respect mine. Even if just haltering, which I rarely do, they get to check out the halter, or the grooming tools ie I ask permission first. To get them to this point I've never been mean to them but then they've never offered to kick or bite. Am I more superior in the ranking? They seek me out to just hang out with me so they must feel safe.
 
#18 ·
I have found that a good way to gain a horse's respect is to make it move, as a more dominant horse would. Get out in the pasture and think move and maybe flutter a hand. You want to eat where he's eating, or at least stand there for 10-15 seconds. Now you can be a cranky horse and keep moving him off his spot and before long he'll start watching you with both eyes. When this happens you have his respect. If you circle around behind him and he doesn't turn to watch you, move him again. When his rump is toward you there's a lack of respect.
 
#19 ·
I think the biggest problem with the confusion regarding dominance when handling horses is that too many people confuse "dominance" with "domination". IMHO, those are 2 different things when it comes to handling horses. Yes, they may have the same root definition according to the dictionary, but in action, they are not the same.

I can show dominance over a horse with a firm word or a dirty look. Dominance just means that you are the alpha over them. Depending on the individual horse, you can achieve that with steady leadership and a kind word...or you may be required to punish or physically dominate them to maintain the level of respect needed.

IMHO, to actually dominate a horse means that you use a level of force beyond that which is really needed to "break" the horse instead of "teaching" the horse.
 
#22 ·
In my mind, I don't or haven't, differentiated the 2 words that much. When I say I dominate Honey every chance I get, I mean I show dominance, not that I'm trying to dominate or break her will. For me, that kind of domination would take all the fun out of figuring her out and it would change her personality and I LOVE her kind of gruff/grumpy/boss mare/testing/exploring options kind of thinking. That indicates a very intelligent horse, to me.

If she's invades my space I send her out. No anger, no meanness, just, "Nope, you can't come in here, out you go" and move on. If she ups the ante by giving me the 'mare look' and/or crowding more then I get a little stronger but if she backs away and licks and chews, then we're good and it's over.

When her foal was first born, she snaked her neck at me and then went a few feet away and hiked her heels at me. I sent her around the yard until she put her eyes on me and 'asked' to come in and kept her look pleasant. Like I said before, I don't beat on her or nit pick her, I just make sure she understands where the lines are and what happens when she crosses them.

I've gotten the feeling that she wasn't handled/loved on much, just groomed, exercised, shown, bred and back to her stall; not much human interaction. She's a big mare, and has a very strong personality and I think she got away with bluffing her previous owner (s) because her "mare ears", "blue eyed death stare" is more of a habit than actual threat. You come toward her, she puts those ears back and looks unpleasant, but walk up and give her a pat or scritch and she tolerates it and doesn't act out. We're working on changing that habit by having a handful of grain every few times we approach her, she can't have the grain unless she gives us 'pretty ears' and looks right at us with a pleasant expression. She's starting to anticipate the reward by looking at us with a nice expression a little more often than she makes the mean look. She's started to nicker a little when she sees me and she'll now approach and stop and wait for an invitation, sometimes but not all the time yet, so she's getting it.

Right now she's one of those all business horses but she's learning to like people and to look forward to what we might do with her or bring her. Her colt is very friendly and enjoys his scritches and will come up to see what you're doing just because he likes people. We're hoping she'll come around to that point of view more as she lives here longer.
 
#20 ·
Absolutely you can have a safe relationship with a horse without thoughts of dominance coming into it. I also thought about this exact question for several years, and I think that it's a good one to ask because it shows that the person is becoming aware of what could be and is looking for a higher level of horsemanship. While I can't speak to every experience, I'm happy to share what I've learned. I think that a good horseman is like a good parent, a good teacher and a good coach combined. I think of myself as being in that role with the horse and then try to be a good one. There are a lot of good role models out there to study and learn from about horses and I always tell people "STUDY THEM ALL!". It gets really exciting once you start get onto some of this stuff. :]
 
#21 ·
Have you ever seen a weanling act as a lead mare? I met one. She certainly could not bite/kick or otherwise physically dominate another horse. She was a PMU foal from Canada. Their very dominate gelding took one look at her and tried to kill her. They ended up sending him home with me.

With him gone, she took his place. Rather funny to see a weanling run a herd, but she did. She was utterly confident. The other PMU foal she was with was one of the weakest and she protected him. As soon as she went out with the other horses, she just took over. She did not need to physically take over the herd. She did so just by personality, and confidence. I can only imagine that her mother must have been alpha in a large herd.

I had to give one of their geldings medication once, and he was being really bad about it. She walked over and physically blocked me from getting near him. Amazing considering she was hardly handled by people previously (if at all).

Horses are very happy to follow a confident/fearless leader. I think horses that have to constantly physically reinforce their position in the herd, are not confident of their ability to hold that position. I know I remember something about a study on wild horses where the lead mare rarely needed to use force, whereas lower ranking horses did.
 
#23 ·
Interesting discussion. I think the term dominance, when it comes to horses, has to be put into context to have any meaning. But to me unless a "leader" has something to say and can clearly communicate it, dominance is probably the wrong word - "feared" might be more applicable. Sure, a horse might "fear" some sort of reprimand if they misbehave, but what keeps their attention and going forward w their lesson or activity for the day, hopefully, isn't fear - it is clear, safe and purposeful direction - and the understanding that any "reprimand" will be fair when and if it is called for. Of course, there are those that are a bit more "willfull" and will test your leadership skills and may require a bit more "contact", but same, same...if the human doesn't win the contest while maintianing some reasonable level of self-control, they either lost or are feared. I have been one of those humans that lost w certain horses. They required and deserved a more courageous and talented leader - but not fear.
 
#25 ·
okay i have found the book on Ebay. Im glad its not 60 $ :). Hopefully things that i see, and are involved in around horses will come together, hopefully i will gather more of an understanding of the horse, i need to understand what the horse seeks and needs in more depth i hope this will tell me that.
 
#26 ·
But i also think that through my own experience and emotional development i will find the answers or should i put it "understandings", it will take time... years decades.
 
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#27 ·
I have not read other responses; I will just give you my opinion.

i want horses to think of me as dominant and a good, trustworthy leader to obey. I want them to accept any and all decisions I make. I do not ask or want their opinion. I do not want any horses making the decisions only I should make. I want my decision accepted without an argument and without me having to use force.

On the other hand, I am not a bully and I try to be 100% consistent and 100% fair, BUT, I AM THE CAPTAIN OF THIS SHIP. I put up with NO insubordination. No good leader lets the inmates or the workers run the institution or business.

I think of it like a good boss that runs a tight ship and a very successful company. A good boss is not a tyrant or a bully -- BUT HE IS THE BOSS. If he treats his subordinates fairly and compensates them well, they will work their hearts out for him. These are the bosses that have the same workers stay with them to retirement. A good horse boss is just the same. The horses do not fear them and do not resent them and are perfectly happy to do everything asked of them the first time they are asked. They always know exactly where they stand and they know they will be compensated with a complete release of pressure when they do the right thing. They will literally jump through hoops and never resent it for one minute. They will absolutely trust their handler / rider even when that person asks something of them that they have never done before.

The one thing no horse can tolerate is inconsistency. The rules have to be the same every single day and every single time a response is needed. Everything must be the same.
 
#28 ·
In contrast to Cherie: (This is not to criticize you at all! I've read many of your comments, and I have HUGE respect for you. But I'm not a professional, and I want/do different things with my horses.)

That said: I do not want my horse to obey everything I ask/demand! I want them to know they can refuse, or adjust their answers, and in fact, make some decisions on their own, because I KNOW I make mistakes.

Example: the footing where I ride is pretty bad, and my horse is very sure-footed. I no longer worry so much about asking too much when the footing is bad, because my horse knows she can adjust things to keep safe. She'll take shorter steps than I want, say, or not canter on that spot, or avoid certain slick spots, etc. When we're in an arena, she's perfectly straight, and will throw herself into extensions if I ask; so I know what I've been allowing hasn't been BAD. I think it's actually helped her to trust me.

Now for disagreements: there aren't too many, because I try hard to set up for success. But she does balk at times, and yes, there are times when I have to be The Boss; usually when not riding. I also use pressure, something I can maintain "forever" if need be. I think it's more fatigue on her part---she gets tired of resisting---than true Obedience.
 
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