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The difference?

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  • Avis snaffle bridle parelli
  • Cradle bridle reviews

 
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    10-10-2009, 10:43 AM
  #11
Weanling
I figured it out, it's a kimberwick they reinvented!

Ok so it doesn't have the nose dealy but you could probably get some hay twine and remove the chain and voila and 38$ investment in your horsenality. Also I have seen that nose band thingy used by some bull fighters at my barn and I am pretty sure they don't follow parelli, and the bits look pretty old, so maybe I can find out how they got theirs, one looks made but another manufactured, so maybe look up bits used on bull fighting horses? But I really think they made a modified kimberwick though I am sure there will be no shortage of parellites to tell me different.
     
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    10-10-2009, 11:23 AM
  #12
Weanling
The cradle bridle is basically a combination bit with a much higher price tag. I used to see them most often in performance horses. I personally have never used one, nor do I desire to. I constantly tell students that we ride the horse, not the head. The main purpose of my reins is for listening, secondary purpose as guiding if the horse needs a little more encouragement to change its posture than my seat and leg can provide. I would expect a horse to get extremely light in the cradle bridle, if you were using five points on my head I would probably get pretty light to those touches as well, especially if I had already been preprogramed to come off of pressure and be light on the hands. To each his own I guess.
     
    10-10-2009, 11:50 AM
  #13
Started
The overall effect of the cradle is actually softer because you disperse the areas of communication over 5 areas, not just in the mouth. It's not putting pressure in all the areas all at once, nor is it tons of pressure. The cradle is meant for upper level students and for Finese riding. All the preperation we do BEFORE we ride with concentrated reins gets the horse soft and light to our seat, legs and hands, but the cradle is a refined tool and makes everything much more clear to the horse and gets the horse feeling more comfortable and confident with contact, based on which mouthpiece you get. The C1 mouthpiece is like a snaffle, however it has a 'float' that allows the horse to swallow even when the rider has contact on the reins, unlike regular snaffles. It has complete tongue contact with is comforting to nevous, tense horses (the RBEs). The C2 has half and half, so to speak....some tongue contact but some tongue relief for the little RBIs, and then the C3 that has ultimate tongue relief for the LB horses who really don't care for tongue contact because they feel blocked.
     
    10-10-2009, 12:16 PM
  #14
Weanling
I'm sorry, but if this is for advanced riders and horses, shouldn't horses be past the point of being nervous and tense? Shouldn't my horse already be busting with confidence? Also, if the horse is so soft to seat, let, and hands, then how are we to recognize compensation patterns that would be masked by the horse taking themselves away from the pressure? I do want a horse to move when I ask it to move, but I don't want it to be so light to the pressure that it may need to be comforted in order to take a contact.
Also, with my experience, every horse has a full deck of cards, the introvert can rapidly become an extrovert once you break through that first defensive pattern. What I would consider a well grounded horse is one that doesn't show any of those imbalances from one side to the other, and I have yet to meet a horse that is incapable of always being in that calm, willing frame of mind. How can you label a bit to a horse's personality type when what we are labeling as "personality" are often times simply defensive patterns? If we are making progress with our horses, shouldn't they be more adaptable and no longer need the reassurance of more pressure like a nervous cow that is settled in a squeeze shoot? Or, shouldn't they be able to handle a little more pressure even if they were extremely skeptical of that pressure in the past? Also, if my horse has been doing so well to get to an advanced level, it doesn't seem like we should need too much pressure that we would need to distribute it so much. Actually, in my experience, we concentrate pressure when we want a response. When you mention distributing pressure, I think of the purpose of a saddle on a horses back, to distribute the constant pressure of the rider. This makes it seem like the cradle bridle would actually fudge the commands, allowing the horse to fall into the pressure, which is the reviews that I heard on the bridle from trainers who have worked with it. I think of a contact as more of a feel, almost like holding hands. My husband can feel me squeeze his hand, he can feel if I get nervous, or anxious, just from the feel of my hand, so doesn't it make sense that with quiet hands, our horse could decipher those same messages, just as we can from them? If we are consistent, then communication shouldn't be a very hard thing to figure out, nor should it require excessive pressure in one place, right?
     
    10-10-2009, 01:29 PM
  #15
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlitterBug    
I'm sorry, but if this is for advanced riders and horses, shouldn't horses be past the point of being nervous and tense? By that I meant that's what the horse innately is. An innately unconfident horse, one who is shy and timid, LEARNS how to be confident in himself and in his rider. Some horses don't need to learn confidence, some have too much for their own good! Lol. Take Pat's mare Magic. She is an innately RBI horse, however when Pat rides her she appears very confident. That is a skill Magic has learned. Even watching her interract with other horses, her innate characteristics match that of a RBI. Shouldn't my horse already be busting with confidence? Also, if the horse is so soft to seat, let, and hands, then how are we to recognize compensation patterns that would be masked by the horse taking themselves away from the pressure? The cradle does not use excessive pressure (unless the rider abuses it, but that's with any bridle), so if the rider is using it softly and correctly, then the horse will have no reason to evade the pressure and compensate anywhere in their body. I do want a horse to move when I ask it to move, but I don't want it to be so light to the pressure that it may need to be comforted in order to take a contact. We want our horses to be sensitized to pressure but confident at the same time. Being super light, as in what you are describing, would be hyper sensitive and that's not what we want. We want the horse to be soft and light yet still go into the contact when we ask him to.
Also, with my experience, every horse has a full deck of cards, the introvert can rapidly become an extrovert once you break through that first defensive pattern. If we have prepared the horse well on the ground, then transferred that to the saddle, the horse shouldn't have any defensive patterns whatsoever. We want positive reflexes, having the horse say "Yes" instead of getting scared or arguing with us. What I would consider a well grounded horse is one that doesn't show any of those imbalances from one side to the other, and I have yet to meet a horse that is incapable of always being in that calm, willing frame of mind. I agree, no horse is incapable of being in a willing frame of mind. The horse is only "incapable" of it if the rider isn't doing what he/she should be doing. How can you label a bit to a horse's personality type when what we are labeling as "personality" are often times simply defensive patterns? Again, a horse properly prepared should not have defensive patterns....because we shouldn't be giving them anything to feel defensive about. If we are making progress with our horses, shouldn't they be more adaptable and no longer need the reassurance of more pressure like a nervous cow that is settled in a squeeze shoot? Depends on the horse's innate characteristics. More and more pressure doesn't calm a horse down, it makes things worse. Or, shouldn't they be able to handle a little more pressure even if they were extremely skeptical of that pressure in the past? No, because that is human logic. If the horse was skeptical of pressure in the past, then that was a confidence issue that the rider has failed to fix. Also, if my horse has been doing so well to get to an advanced level, it doesn't seem like we should need too much pressure that we would need to distribute it so much. Say you ride with 8 ounces of pressure in a regular snaffle bridle. With the cradle, that 8 ounces is evenly distributed over the 5 areas, thus making the overall effect even softer (because there is no excessive pressure in one area) and it's much more clear to the horse. Actually, in my experience, we concentrate pressure when we want a response. When you mention distributing pressure, I think of the purpose of a saddle on a horses back, to distribute the constant pressure of the rider. This makes it seem like the cradle bridle would actually fudge the commands, allowing the horse to fall into the pressure, which is the reviews that I heard on the bridle from trainers who have worked with it. When the rider activates the reins, the first areas to receive contact is the poll, nose and chin....so you could say this is a preparatory command to the horse that we are trying to communicate something BEFORE the bit is actually activated. I myself have the cradle with the C3 bit and my horse goes very well in his snaffle, he doesn't lean, he's soft and stretches into it, yet when I put the cradle on him everything is much more subtle, he comes through nicely, he certainly is not evading, his ears are back and attentive, he foams a little bit, his flexion remains soft...and I'm using hardly any pressure on the reins at all. It's not because the bridle is harsh, it's because I don't NEED to use much because the bridle makes everything so much more clear. My horse is a VERY honset guy and if something pisses him off he lets me know! Lol. He has never once opossed the cradle. I think of a contact as more of a feel, almost like holding hands. Absolutely :) I completely agree. My husband can feel me squeeze his hand, he can feel if I get nervous, or anxious, just from the feel of my hand, so doesn't it make sense that with quiet hands, our horse could decipher those same messages, just as we can from them? Sure, IF the horse is in a learning frame of mind. If he's unconfident, we can be soft all we want to but it won't make any difference if we don't get to the root of the unconfidence and fix it. Say the horse is spooky at one end of the arena. We could ride him past that spot all day, with nice soft hands, never getting any firmer, but it wouldn't necessarily cause the horse to become more confident. He needs us to approach and retreat that threshold, but that's another topic :) If we are consistent, then communication shouldn't be a very hard thing to figure out, nor should it require excessive pressure in one place, right? Of course. Again, a lot of this lies in the horse's preparation as well as the person's. Like I said, the cradle does not use excessive pressure.
Responses in bold :)
     
    10-10-2009, 05:34 PM
  #16
Weanling
Ok, for the most part, you basically confirmed everything that I said. As far as Magic goes, I know stories about that relationship that never hit the DVDs, so you won't get any respect from me there.
As far as pressure goes, pressure can relax as well. When we work cows, they go in a chute, when the chute closes, the cows don't panic, they relax. I know Temple Grandin actually made a squeeze chute for herself to help her with anxiety that has proven effective on many autistic people. That is what I was referring to by pressure. The cradle bridle almost seems to do the same thing to a horses head....
As far as the pressure distribution goes, that does not make sense either. Look at the laws of physics, I have to use more pressure on a larger area to get a response of less pressure on a smaller area. It may seem softer to the rider because of the amount of leverage that the bridle provides.
Also, if I am on a horse that is as finished as what you describe a horse should be before the cradle bridle, then spooking actually vanishes. Take my gelding, he is my right hand man when training other horses or just enjoying a ride. I have had him since he was 3. If anything catches him off guard, he doesn't react more than a slight tension. If I say its ok, he completely lets it go, he trusts my judgement as the herd leader without question, as do my other horses. If so much ground work is done on the ground, then why would there be any question to the herd leader's judgement?
IMO, the bridle seems to "babysit" the horse a bit too much. I feel as though everything that I am communicating to my horse is getting through granted that he is listening to me and I to him.
With everything, you pretty much confirmed that the properly prepared horse does not need a cradle bridle. It seems very far from "natural" to me, many people believe that it is their way of sweeping up the fact that people were going through the entire program and still having issues. Basically, isn't any bit just another tool of communication for the horse? The more complex, the lighter the contact necessary, why all the fluff? The same thing 10 years ago would be classified as a "torture device".
     
    10-10-2009, 05:47 PM
  #17
Started
No one NEEDS the cradle bridle. But for those of us who want to head toward performance and to be as subtle as possible, and those of us who are interested in getting the right setup for our horse based on his innate characteristics while riding to make him as happy and comfortable as possible, then the cradle is a wonderful tool to have available to us. If someone just wants to trail ride, then the cradle isn't something that person needs. It's only for those of us who want to focus on Finesse. One of the keys to success with horses are the tools you choose to use.....it's no less important than anything else, and the cradle is a refined tool, and one I find extremely nice to have available. I have yet to ride a horse, or personally know a horse, who has hated the cradle bridle.
     
    10-10-2009, 07:04 PM
  #18
Weanling
Not to confuse people, but to also put a note on this more or less...the Cradle bit is something that you would use after your horse is familiar with contact, and in the stages of collection, and is a good "stepping stone" to using western shank bits or dressage bridles (like the double bridle).
"Cradle Bridle For collection and as preparation for Curb Bits Reins on Small Rings Add Curb Strap"

They also mention somewhere that you would go from the natural hackamore, to their confidence snaffle, to their cradle bit if the horse does not know how to properly carry himself, and/or is hard on the bit and so on. The cradle is for refining...just like a double bridle in dressage or a western shank bit for western pleasure. Surely when you are starting a dressage horse you don't start out with a double bridle...and surely for a western trained horse, you don't start out with a bit with a shank on it? Neither would you immediately start out with the cradle. Natural Hackamore first, then confidence snaffle is optional (from my understandings of reading their articles) if your horse is evading the bit or something of that sorts, and then the cradle, used for refining and collection.

I'm sorry if that is confusing! I can see if I can find the actual sheet that says all of that if it is too confusing!
     
    10-10-2009, 07:18 PM
  #19
Trained
I know that Myler makes the cradle bits for parelli, so can I ask what the difference is between the C1 cradle bit and any low port myler bit? (Though myler calls it a combination bit Toklat - Horse Tack - Saddle Pads - Horse Riding ApparelCombo Bits Use)

And Myler categorizes the bits differently (with ports) than Parelli does
Toklat - Horse Tack - Saddle Pads - Horse Riding ApparelMyler Selecting a Bit
Particullarly the bits in level 2-3 as opposed to the C2 and C3

I'd just hate for someone to put a C3/Level 3 bit in a horse's mouth when they are not any these:
Horse considered broke or finished;
Willing to obey commands
Relaxed at the poll
Possesses advanced skills; works well off seat, legs and hands

I know the bit is only as harsh as the hands of the rider, but I believe that Myler has these levels for a reason.

And one more question.. wouldn't you consider the cradle bits leverage bits since the reins are attached to a different place than the headstall is? And the fact that you can have the reins fixed?
     
    10-10-2009, 07:29 PM
  #20
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirithorse    
No one NEEDS the cradle bridle. But for those of us who want to head toward performance and to be as subtle as possible, and those of us who are interested in getting the right setup for our horse based on his innate characteristics while riding to make him as happy and comfortable as possible, then the cradle is a wonderful tool to have available to us. If someone just wants to trail ride, then the cradle isn't something that person needs. It's only for those of us who want to focus on Finesse. One of the keys to success with horses are the tools you choose to use.....it's no less important than anything else, and the cradle is a refined tool, and one I find extremely nice to have available. I have yet to ride a horse, or personally know a horse, who has hated the cradle bridle.
NO it is not. Is an advertising ploy by a master of advertising. If you are looking for a performance horse that bit would be the last thing you would use. For one it is an illegal bit so you can not use it to show so why train with it. That bit will give you no more finesse then any other bit. Finesse dose not come from the bit it comes from a rider who understands the correct way to ask and the right time to reward the horse for what you are asking. No gimmicks no high priced junk that you can get for less then 1/2 that price.

I have nothing against NH. What I do not like is people like Parreli who get people thinking they need all the high priced crap to get a horse to work and be a willing partner.
     

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