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Fear Does Not Equal Respect

7K views 42 replies 24 participants last post by  Foxhunter 
#1 ·
I wrote a recent post where I described the difference between punishment (negative) and correction (positive) when working with. I must say I was disheartened to read (my post was re-blogged by someone else on another forum) how many horse owners feel that punishing attacking a horse has its place in horse training. Respectfully, I absolutely disagree.

Why doesn’t punishment (as described in the previous post) work? Let’s explore that with an example of using punishment on a horse for an unwanted action I read about: the owner described how he/she punished their horse by whacking him several times as hard as they could with a stick because he reared when passing other horses. The rearing stopped. Why? Fear. Not respect. Not trust. But fear. If you think for one moment that this is what respect looks like, you’d be lying to yourself.

But the rearing stopped you say?! Indeed it did. But it will come back. Why? Because the horse was not encouraged to find the right answer on his own. The horse didn’t stop rearing because his handler helped build his trust and confidence by teaching him tactfully that he could pass other horses in a calm fashion and still be safe. There were no clear, firm corrections or rewards for even the slightest effort. Instead there was nagging, dulling pressure and his one big lesson from this experience is that his human handler can’t be trusted not to expose him to danger.

Let’s fast forward a little and pose a hypothetical situation that will test this horse’s training. The horse and his handler are walking by a small herd of horses. Among them is a 16hh stallion. The stallion moves fast, head high as it comes closer and closer. The gelding is nervous...trapped, frightened. Where to now? Will it be the stallion willing and able to kick or the handler willing and able to beat him? Who can he trust in such a tight spot? His handler didn’t show him how to adopt a wait and see and trust in your leader approach to this kind of situation. He’s outta there.

The stallion could have been a snake on a trail or advertising sign in an arena. The result will still be the same. Solid horse training takes time. Fear = Respect? Not at all.
 
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#35 ·
I read the first page only.

I don't really buy much into natural horsemanship, that doesn't mean I am only old school either, I do a bit of both - but no NH games, just good sense horsemanship.

I am not harsh on my horse, so when I first got him, he tested boundaries. He was in a paddock that entered into his stall, the inside latch was stiff, so I put the feed in, and then walked outside to let him in and open the door. He charged me, I moved over, so did his charge, he was full out galloping right at me, and when I moved, he did too, so he was still coming at me. There wasn't much time, and there wasn't a fence I could get through in time. For some reason, I have no idea why, as there was no reason for me still to have it, but I had a metal feed scoop in my hand. At this point, I had my back to the barn and nowhere to go. I launched that metal feed scoop and got him squarely in the forehead. He's an English riding horse, but he did a sliding stop to impress western riders, as I moved to the fence, he stopped right at the barn, where I would have been standing.

It wasn't his fault that he stopped there, he was lucky to stop, but he did stop coming at me. Immediately.

Never once has he come at me again, and never once have I ever thrown something at him again. It's been 3-4 years since. But if he came at me again, I would take off my shoe and throw it, or do whatever I could, including whopping him.

I think the NH movement is over the top with the don't hurt a horse that can kill you. Some of the better NH'ers would, but not the most popular ones.

So you have a horse charging you, and you have your back to the barn, what would you do?
 
#36 ·
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but yes, aggressive punishment *does* have it's place at *times*.
I have a mare that EVERY TIME you tried to mount she would stand still and willing - not moving a muscle but as soon as she felt you getting on, she would swing around a try to bite you. And not just a, "Hey I don't feel like a ride." bump. There was pinned ears, angry eyes, and teeth!
There was nothing wrong with her back, or the saddle fit - I had both checked.

Once we were standing for a moment while I was trying to readjust my stirrup. She snaked around, teeth bared and about got my hand. I calmly sat up in the saddle and waited for her to do it again. And she did. And I kicked her as hard as I could and caught her a good one right in the top lip. She turned around with a big "owwie!" face (although not even taking a step during this) and I continued to sit calmly right afterwards.

Did she try to bite me later that day (I did practice more with getting on and off multiple times just to test) - no. Did she shy when I went to rub her head - no. Did she try to bite me the next day or the day after - Nope.
So I would say I fixed it. But other people would say I abused her?
Do you think that if I hadn't been fast enough and she was able to bite me, do you think she'd feel sorry - Nope.
That kick from my sneaker to her nose still isn't anything that a hoof in the pasture would have been like. But it got the point across in her own language.
 
#37 ·
This has been an interesting thread to read. I began using positive reward training (treats, scratches, praise) and minimal pressure a couple of years ago and unwanted behavious have just melted away, including bite threats. I do occassionally have to signal 'no', an the strength of that depends on what the horse has done. Getting a little pushy a calm 'no' and wagging finger does the trick, if more serious a louder 'NO' and biger gesture, if very serious a shouted 'NO!' and leap at them to send them away and keep them away works. Note I do all my training at liberty - no ropes- and in a large field, and wouldn't advocate lots of pressure if the horse was on a lead or in a small yard/round pen.
 
#38 ·
Quoted from AlexS:

So you have a horse charging you, and you have your back to the barn, what would you do?

What would I do? Exactly what you did AlexS! I had a two year old charge up behind me and bite me on the shoulder blade, he actually had it in his teeth, and half lift me off the ground at feed time many years ago. I had just dumped the feed out of a 15 litre pail in the feeder as he did it, well he had swung me around to my good fortune and I hurled that bucket across the pen and hit him square between the eyes, or was it the back of the head? Anyway I can't remember, but it happened all within a few seconds. He never charged for feed again. I look back at that and think, heck if he had grabbed me by the back of the head he could e broken my neck or scalped me.

Turned into a very nice horse in the end.

To those wanting to report this as abuse, please PM me, I'd love to share details;)
 
#39 · (Edited)
I have a mare who I HAVE to use very firm punishment with. She is a half draft 1600 pound mare and she is INCREDIBLY dominant. She leads any herd she's placed into with her teeth and all four iron hooves... Including me, if I give her even half a chance. She moves the herd of 20 with nothing but her ears. She didn't earn that place with nothing but smiles to the other horses.

I tried nothing but positive reinforcement. Believe me, I did. What did that give me? A herdbound horse to the point of being dangerous who would nip and bite for treats and walk all over everybody. She NEEDS to be shown that she is NOT my herd leader and with her, that just can't be done without some very solid rules. She does get punished if she steps out of line. She does get a bop on the nose when she bites my pockets. I do use a crop to remind her just when she's getting too out of line. The fights she gets into in the pasture are more than enough to remind me that she moves for no horse, unless they can show her with their teeth that they deserve to have her move for them, and to her I am no different.

Is she afraid of me? Absolutely not. She respects the authority I hold over her. She will occasionally challenge me and believe me if I don't put a FIRM hold on that she will take what she can get and run. And yet she's not afraid of me. She willingly comes to me in the pasture. She puts her head down for scratches. She will do things she's NOT supposed to do, looking at me out of the corner of her eye, and plays at nonchalance when I turn for correction. She follows me willingly, she looks to me for leadership. I have earned her respect and trust and now she's happy to come in with me and beg for pets - with minimal correction here and there when she tests our boundaries. The fact of the matter is she simply will not respect someone who isn't capable of taking that leadership by the nose and fighting for their right to have it.

My other mare is the most easygoing girl on the planet. I could do NOTHING but positive reinforcement and she'd do exactly what I want. She's very willing, very okay with following, and has not challenged me a single time ever. The second she understands what I want she does it.

Some horses do well with what you're talking about. Some horses do not. I have one of each. One training method simply does not work with both of them. If I used the same teaching I did with my dominant mare on the second one she WOULD be afraid of me because she just doesn't need that level of energy. And if I used the methods I teach the second mare with the dominant mare, I would have a very nasty horse on my hands. It's not a one size fits all situation.
 
#40 · (Edited)
I mostly agree with what has been said. I do think that there must be a measure of fear in the beginning to achieve respect.
There has to be negative consequences or there is no way for a horse to recognize what behavior is good and what is bad.
Likewise there must be positive consequences for the correct behavior for encouragement.
I think respect and trust are achieved through consistency in your reactions and with time.
 
#42 ·
I read this thread awhile ago but since then have forgotten what was said.

So this is said completely of my own interpretation of the title of this thread.

To me, when a horse respects you.. it's not because it fears you (though that may be how SOME choose to work with horses) it's more it has gotten to a place where it does not want to feel discomfort and therefore will make choices to stay in "good standing" with its handler. Then that usually branches off into eager to please the handler, to avoid any discomfort.

The only analogy I can think of is when you have just started a new job and getting to know your new boss. You have no idea how they are, what is acceptable... etc. You have the upper hand in that you can talk to them to find out (asking them directly) but so does a horse: in his/her actions and your reactions.

For us, as we're getting to know that new boss we may come across as very ladeda, which evokes a stern talking to about "professionalism" so we may change to please our boss by becoming more of a professional, instead of chilled out and 'whatever' about things.

Now for a horse.. if you want him to go forward so you put leg on.. and he backs up when you want him to go forward, that isn't what you want so maybe he gets a swift kick to snap him out of that mindset.. well that wasn't very nice, so he knows NOW that isn't what he should be doing as it brought him discomfort so hopefully he tries something else until he finds that "release."

That's how I see it. It starts as avoiding discomfort but then transforms into "wanting to please his/her handler"
 
#43 · (Edited)
I like the anology of Sky's.

I always say that nothing can be taught if the recipient does not want to learn.
My method is the three Fs - FIRM, FAIR and FUN. It is up to the 'pupil' as to whether it is the easy road or the hard.

If I have raised a horse from a foal then it is going to accept all that is done to it. There might be a few 'What ifs?' But nothing major because they know that it will occur anyway.
I like anything to work things out for themselves so, the 'what if's' are answered by the pupil themselves.
Say an older foal decides not to lead and puts on the brakes, I will apply pressure to the halter and keep that pressure on until it yields to it. No hassle, just let it work it out, yield to the pressure and it goes away. I never have any problem teaching them to tie as they learn this very early on in life.

Where the fear and respect issue comes into play is correcting the horse that has got away with blue murder.
A horse that has learned it is stronger than a human, is a dangerous animal. A horse that has learned that if it threatens to kick or bite the human will back down, is a dangerous one. The horse that has learned that if it bulks, bucks or rears and refuses to go where it is meant to go, is a dangerous one.

I have all the patience in the world to teach something new to anything, if some method doesn't work then I will change my teaching to something else. However, of anything is taking the Michael, then I am not afraid to correct and correct hard.

The horse that swings around and threatens to kick me will get set up to do it a second time, and I will then put the fear of me into it. It will learn on one hard lesson that kicking is a NO NO.

On the other hand there can be times when a horse is difficult because it is trying to say something and it is not being listened to. An example of this would be a horse that is difficult to tack up but respectful in all other ways. It could be that it is saying "this is going to hurt." and things like tack fit need to be looked at.

As I said earlier, respect is a form of fear, in that you have the wish to please because you will be letting the other down if you do not. It is not terror at all.

All training is on going, let the little things slip and the major issues start to appear.
 
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