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Fear Does Not Equal Respect

This is a discussion on Fear Does Not Equal Respect within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        08-08-2013, 05:24 PM
      #11
    Foal
    What about the other relationship? Pair Bonds, Preferred Associates, (also know as horse buddies or horse pals).

    They share food, play together, allogroom, and spend their restive behavior together.

    Their respect and trust for each other is evident. Yet it is difficult to tell which one is of higher rank.

    Wouldn't it be better to establish that relationship, rather then the normal hierarchal herd relationship?
         
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        08-08-2013, 05:36 PM
      #12
    Super Moderator
    The difference in those situations is that they are horses and we are humans and they know that
    Even in those relationships - I have two mares like it - there is usually one that will be the 'leader' if there's anything stressing them
    Interestingly those two horses are also what I call the 'easy' ones as they never challenge you in the way of saying 'I don't want you to do that to me because I just dont'
    No one is saying that you go into everything guns blazing - all horses need a level of getting used to things that are new and maybe worrying to them and aggression certainly doesn't work in those situations
    But if a horse decides to play dirty and outright threaten you then no amount of gentle persuasion is going to work - the exception to this are horses that have been made defensive through constant bullying and abuse - they are a much harder animal to deal with
         
        08-08-2013, 05:52 PM
      #13
    Super Moderator
    My trainer always says that you meet the horse with the amount of "push" (resistance) they have on you, and one ounce more.

    So, if the horse rears up at you while lunging, or strikes at you, that's a LOT of push and you meet that with a lot. If they flick an ear back, it might be that a little shuffle of your feet is all that is needed to meet that push , and an ounce more. The idea being that you use as little as necessary to get the job done. The job? Affect a change.
         
        08-08-2013, 09:05 PM
      #14
    Started
    I am not so sure that horses actually know fear. It may just be another human emotion we put on them. They spook, yes, but fear is different from startle reflex. They usually turn around and investigate what startles them.

    Nancy
    AnrewPL likes this.
         
        08-08-2013, 09:50 PM
      #15
    Foal
    That's interesting about your horses. I've observed hundreds here in North Texas and about 4% turn out that way.
         
        08-08-2013, 11:36 PM
      #16
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Equus101    
    What about the other relationship? Pair Bonds, Preferred Associates, (also know as horse buddies or horse pals).

    They share food, play together, allogroom, and spend their restive behavior together.

    Their respect and trust for each other is evident. Yet it is difficult to tell which one is of higher rank.

    Wouldn't it be better to establish that relationship, rather then the normal hierarchal herd relationship?
    If you can't tell which one is the leader? Than you don't know much about horses is all I can say.

    While they may share and play there is one leader.

    You just don't know what to look for.

    As for establishing that relationship? Please. It doesn't work that way. You are not a horse and they are not a human.
         
        08-08-2013, 11:37 PM
      #17
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by greentree    
    I am not so sure that horses actually know fear. It may just be another human emotion we put on them. They spook, yes, but fear is different from startle reflex. They usually turn around and investigate what startles them.

    Nancy
    They most definitely can be afraid. Big time. Not startled, but deep down, "I'm going to die" fear. I've ridden Mia in an arena where she worked herself into a state of fear for 2 hours straight. My oldest daughter came out, watched, and said, "Dad, her eyes are rolling like a slot machine! This isn't going to be good..." She was also squirting diarrhea all over - not turds, but green pee from her butt. I ended up pulling her head to one side, wrapping the reins around the horn & jumping off of her. She went the next 8 months unridden, and then started months of professional training. She is vastly better now, but it took years to help her set aside her fears.

    Then there is that healthy type of fear. Yesterday, when I had scooped up most of the poop in the corral, Mia came over. When I was a little way off scooping the last pile, she tipped the wheelbarrow over with her nose. I shouted out an obscenity, and at the sound of my voice she spun and sprinted to the farthest point of the corral. The 2 geldings who share the corral with her did not - they knew darn well who tipped the wheelbarrow over! A minute later, she tip-toed back...ears forward, checking to see if she was forgiven.
         
        08-09-2013, 12:04 AM
      #18
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Palomine    
    If you can't tell which one is the leader? Than you don't know much about horses is all I can say.

    While they may share and play there is one leader.

    You just don't know what to look for.

    As for establishing that relationship? Please. It doesn't work that way. You are not a horse and they are not a human.

    LOL! You certanly can say what you want'!

    But it has in fourteen different countries with horses that ranged from untrainable killers to scheduled to be put down to those completely shut down.
    McCoy likes this.
         
        08-09-2013, 12:22 AM
      #19
    Started
    I don't know that I can interpret fear in a horse. I can know what I interpret as fear;however, I am not sure that is the horses genuine emotion. I have seen horses react in what their owner calls "fear" to the vet and that behavior ends up being more aggression and the horse is dangerous. If the choice is between someone getting killed and putting the "fear of god" in that horse. I don't bounce nearly as well as 1000 pounds of horse does. So, having been in certain situations where it was use fear as a respect tool to keep that horse from not seriously injuring someone its appropriate. As others have pointed out, horses are really surprisingly tough. Look at the way yearling stud colts play with one another (rearing, striking, biting, bucking) all things that if they did to me could result in a case of deadness. I don't want to be my horses equal. My horse treats its equals like horses, I want possibly a mother foal relationship. I am the trusted, guardian/food source/ authority in the horses life. My word is the word.

    I also don't know that I would hear fear as respect. I think that we can't interpret fear because it is really close the the "he was abused" story line we hear a lot. Which is used to excuse a lot of inappropriate behavior. I look at my dog as an example. He has never been abused, he was used in medical research and not exposed to anything for two years of his life. If I approach him "wrong" (loom over him) he will cower, if I take him to a new environment he will cower. I have never abused this dog, his reaction is a "fear" reaction; however, it stems from lack of experience. Which is less fear and more insecurity. At the end of the day we don't get to know what they are thinking and its dangerous to start ascribing emotions to them.
         
        08-09-2013, 12:45 AM
      #20
    Banned
    For arguments sake lets just call our perceived fear reaction in a horse 'survival instinct'.....that way we all don't feel bad when our horse is engaging his 'survival instinct' when we are giving him a tune up for kicking
         

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