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Fear Does Not Equal Respect

7K views 42 replies 24 participants last post by  Foxhunter 
#1 ·
I wrote a recent post where I described the difference between punishment (negative) and correction (positive) when working with. I must say I was disheartened to read (my post was re-blogged by someone else on another forum) how many horse owners feel that punishing attacking a horse has its place in horse training. Respectfully, I absolutely disagree.

Why doesn’t punishment (as described in the previous post) work? Let’s explore that with an example of using punishment on a horse for an unwanted action I read about: the owner described how he/she punished their horse by whacking him several times as hard as they could with a stick because he reared when passing other horses. The rearing stopped. Why? Fear. Not respect. Not trust. But fear. If you think for one moment that this is what respect looks like, you’d be lying to yourself.

But the rearing stopped you say?! Indeed it did. But it will come back. Why? Because the horse was not encouraged to find the right answer on his own. The horse didn’t stop rearing because his handler helped build his trust and confidence by teaching him tactfully that he could pass other horses in a calm fashion and still be safe. There were no clear, firm corrections or rewards for even the slightest effort. Instead there was nagging, dulling pressure and his one big lesson from this experience is that his human handler can’t be trusted not to expose him to danger.

Let’s fast forward a little and pose a hypothetical situation that will test this horse’s training. The horse and his handler are walking by a small herd of horses. Among them is a 16hh stallion. The stallion moves fast, head high as it comes closer and closer. The gelding is nervous...trapped, frightened. Where to now? Will it be the stallion willing and able to kick or the handler willing and able to beat him? Who can he trust in such a tight spot? His handler didn’t show him how to adopt a wait and see and trust in your leader approach to this kind of situation. He’s outta there.

The stallion could have been a snake on a trail or advertising sign in an arena. The result will still be the same. Solid horse training takes time. Fear = Respect? Not at all.
 
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#2 ·
Great post. Solid horse training takes time. Absolutely, one of the biggest things I notice is the need for instant gratification, and people do not want to put in the time, sweat and work involved in training a horse. They want to skip steps and end up leaving holes in their training. And then blame it on the "stupid horse". Horse training is not always pretty, and is certainly not achievable in 30 days. An effective trainer will accept one good step and release the pressure, so the horse knows he did the right thing, then ask for another good step. You cannot beat a horse into respect. The horse learns to respect you by the way you handle and teach it to. Horses are looking for leadership and it is our job as an effective leader to lead them to the right answer, by not releasing the pressure until they find the right answer on their own. People make fun of me for all the ground work I put into my horses, and time I spend desensitizing my horses. But when we go on a ride and my horse is calm, quiet and fun ride while there horse is jigging, snatching grass, and spooking I just sit back and smile.
 
#3 ·
Maybe I missed it, but did you explain how you would have corrected a horse is this situation?

Also, I see you into natural horsemenship, how does this translate into herd behavior?

In my eyes I see horses correcting a behavior, usually before it happens, with a head toss, nose wrinkle or tail swish. If the "lower" horse breaks the boundaries of a higher ranking one I've seen them chase, bite and kick the others.

I see it as no different then when a horse tries to bite me. I say "knock it of", give the lead a snap, or make sure he runs into my hand. That's telling think that behavior is unacceptable. If or when he make contact with my skin you better believe he gonna get one hard punch in the face, some shaper jerks on the lead and his gonna back his butt up like his tails on fire. Then I go back to nothing ever happening, just like the alpha who chased, bit and kicked the other horse for coming to close to his food.
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#4 ·
Fear does not equal respect, but sometimes it is a good starting point. A horse cannot learn to respect your judgment until he first FOLLOWS your direction. And a horse has no reason to follow your direction unless there are consequences for not following your direction. It doesn't require "FEAR", but it requires something unpleasant enough that the horse "CHOOSES" to obey.

Once the horse obeys, he can learn that obeying works, and thus learn you have good judgment and should be trusted.

There are also differences between emergencies and non-emergencies. A horse who doesn't stop well in an arena is not an emergency. A horse who doesn't stop when galloping toward a busy road is an emergency. The first needs more training, but the second needs his head ripped off, if required, to stop.

A horse who pushes into your space needs training. A horse biting you is an emergency, and needs the Hammer of Thor to fall on his head.

It is completely reasonable to break down behaviors into smaller steps, and teach the horse thru 10 small steps rather than insisting on one big leap. Before I could ride my horse into the desert, I needed to walk her in the desert on a lead line. And before I could walk her into the desert on a lead line, I needed to walk her away from other horses. So we started walking 100 yards - as far as she would get without a nervous breakdown - and worked it up to miles. First rides were with other horses on non-windy days. It would have been a waste of time and cruel to just jump on her back and try to beat her enough to make her go out into the desert.

But at the same time, I couldn't train her unless I pushed her outside her comfort zone: the corral. Without pressure, and without any consequences for disobeying, she would still be living in a corral and still be too afraid to go anywhere.

Providing negative consequences IS "natural". That is how horses treat other horses. Those negative consequences create a certain amount of 'fear'. That creates obedience, and obedience can eventually be followed with trust in the rider.
 
#5 ·
Like your post but I agree and disagree with some of the thinking behind it
Respect shouldn't be built on fear and neither should a horses training be based on fear because fear destroys trust and trust is the most important thing in a relationship with a horse
Part of that is seen in the whole 'desensitizing' thing. You could spend forever sacking your horse out to every single thing it might encounter on your travels to the extent that you'd never take it out of the barn. There's nothing wrong with getting horses used to things but so much easier if your horse trusts you and so believes you when you tell it that scary flapping bag heading your way isn't a monster and even if it is you as the leader will protect it
Where I disagree is that there are times when a good sharp smack is needed to put some horses into their place, give them a wake up call so to speak. You cant treat them like children and give them a lecture on why its not nice to kick or bite 'Mummy/Daddy' or sit them on the naughty step
Horses if treated fairly don't see that sort of punishment as abuse because its the way another horse would treat them.
I had to give Honey a smack this morning because she totally forgot that it was wrong to charge out of the stable while I was still fastening the door back. She stepped back in, waited for me and then quietly walked by mu side down to her paddock - no fear at all.
Its all in the way you do it
 
#6 ·
Solid horse training takes time.

Pretty sure we're all on the same page with that. Not rocket science, nor is it relegated to only NH training. Common sense, traditional training uses the same methodology.

Fear = Respect? Not at all.
I wasn't aware anyone stated anything like that, so you're extrapolating.

Discipline is not abuse and if you're going to use the old, 'watch the horses and see how they react to each other' line to prove a point, you'd better know exactly how horses treat each other. They're not sweet and gentle. They give extremely clear, unfriendly signals, and when necessary will escalate into punishment if the offender just isn't getting it.
 
#7 ·
Ah, yes. The "Fear is negitive" approach. I disagree. Is constant fear for your life bad? of course. Worred about being beaten, or abuse? no doubt. But some kinds of fear are the basis of possitve behavior. For example: Fear to displease.

The leader of my horses herd is an OTTB mare. she is a firm, but fair leader. No one encroaches on her space, steals her food, or misbehaves around her. They are not afraid she will randomly attack or kill them, in fact, the herd is a happy place. What they are afraid of is breaking the rules and upsetting her. They know their will be disapline involved, and they naturally want to maintain peace in a herd. An ideal horse-human relationship is similar. Happy to be around you, work with you and follow your direction, but have a healthy fear of displeasing you. In fact a dictionary definition of fear is "reverential awe".

aditionally, some situations warrant fear(terror, anxiety, etc). For example, as mentioned by an above poster, emergency or life threatening situations. If a mares foal is in danger, she will do her darndest to make the offending creature fear for its life, and never forget it. Similarly, if a horse threatens my safety, I will take whatever actions nessesary to make that animal understand that the dangerous action is NEVER to be repeated.

I'm all for fair, patient, understanding training, but in the horse world, fear can occasionally be nessesary.
 
#8 ·
Respect is learned and earned. But it starts with something we call fear.

In the beginning --- as infants --- fear can be induced in small amounts, like the threat of being left behind.

As we, and our horses age, it takes more "input" to change our way of thinking. A daredevil might be hurt; it's not "punishment" by our definitions. But when a horse acts dangerously, and is hurt, we DO call it punishment, because we caused it.

I think many of us have known horses brought up so easily they've never had more than a verbal reprimand. But many of the horses mentioned on the forum "need smacking" etc. Well, I have to disagree with a lot of this, because one really needs to know WHY the horse is acting thusly.

But if it is a case of "no respect" then, I believe, the only approach is first, to get the horse a little afraid of you. Not terrified, not mindlessly in panic, but a little fear can also be called a "healthy respect." I see NH trainers "get it" all the time by fatiguing the horse to where it can hardly move. That's one way, I guess. If I ever need that kind of work done, I will get a trainer; because I'm not of the type to do this. But I think, truthfully, it's the place to start.
 
#9 ·
To my way of thinking respect is a form of fear.
I never went out and mugged an old lady because the fear of the wrath of my parents. I was not terrified of them and sure as heck had respect for them but, the knowledge that they would get mad was enough to keep me on the straight and narrow.

I do not believe in beating a horse up but, I sure as heck will make them think that they are going to die if they do misbehave.

Many times I have been asked to clip a horse that has to be doped to get anywhere near it with clippers. I do not have the time nor the inclination to mess around desensitising it to the noise or vibration. I go in with the determination that I will get it clipped come what may. When the horse reacts adversely I will go into attack mode and have that horse moving backwards around the stable until it shows signs of submission. I will then stop and continue with clipping as if nothing has happened. The horse has two choices, be clipped or suffer my wrath. ( This is not anything done in temper)

I was in charge of clipping all. The jump racehorses in a yard I was working in. At any time there were never less than 80 horses there, each horse was clipped at least three times and of them all there was only one that I had to twitch to do one ear. This was full hunter clips. Prior, there were at least a dozen of these horses that had to be doped. One had hospitalised three lads at different times whilst being clipped. I could clip him whilst he was totally loose, just a rope over his neck.

I have had a lot of experience with all types of horses and, there have been times when a horse has behaved very badly that I have resorted to using a whip whilst riding. Used correctly it works, and not by fear.

A horse that is afraid needs a command not cooing over. That way it is told how to behave and if the handler takes command it will relax.

If you are playing around with a couple of horses then taking all the times in the world is possible but when you are dealing with many then time is vital to find a solution.

I am not a great believer in negative and positive. If I go into a field to feed several horses and one comes at me in attack mode I am not going to ignore it, I am going to give it the feed wrapped straight around its head in the bucket. Another horse, higher in the pecking order would do far worse to warn it off.
They naturally learn by pain. A foal that ignores its mother when she is eating a feed and it wants to suckle will ,be warned with body language. If that is ignored it will get punched with her teeth.

All I can say is that I doubt you have had much experience with the odd horse that has every intention of doing you real harm.
 
#10 ·
Fox hunter - I used to clip at the track and at many barns......nothing I clipped was sedated, I did twitch one that had previously put my friend in hospital with a broken scapula, punctured lung, broken wrist and ribs.....last time it was clipped it exploded and jumped right on top of her - needless to say I was prepared. I have a nice set of clippers and clip my own horse now, I got tired with dealing with cuddly owners who fed their horses cookies while I was underneath the horse:shock: I only clip for people and barns I know now......safety first.
 
#11 ·
What about the other relationship? Pair Bonds, Preferred Associates, (also know as horse buddies or horse pals).

They share food, play together, allogroom, and spend their restive behavior together.

Their respect and trust for each other is evident. Yet it is difficult to tell which one is of higher rank.

Wouldn't it be better to establish that relationship, rather then the normal hierarchal herd relationship?
 
#16 ·
If you can't tell which one is the leader? Than you don't know much about horses is all I can say.

While they may share and play there is one leader.

You just don't know what to look for.

As for establishing that relationship? Please. It doesn't work that way. You are not a horse and they are not a human.
 
#12 ·
The difference in those situations is that they are horses and we are humans and they know that
Even in those relationships - I have two mares like it - there is usually one that will be the 'leader' if there's anything stressing them
Interestingly those two horses are also what I call the 'easy' ones as they never challenge you in the way of saying 'I don't want you to do that to me because I just dont'
No one is saying that you go into everything guns blazing - all horses need a level of getting used to things that are new and maybe worrying to them and aggression certainly doesn't work in those situations
But if a horse decides to play dirty and outright threaten you then no amount of gentle persuasion is going to work - the exception to this are horses that have been made defensive through constant bullying and abuse - they are a much harder animal to deal with
 
#13 ·
my trainer always says that you meet the horse with the amount of "push" (resistance) they have on you, and one ounce more.

So, if the horse rears up at you while lunging, or strikes at you, that's a LOT of push and you meet that with a lot. If they flick an ear back, it might be that a little shuffle of your feet is all that is needed to meet that push , and an ounce more. the idea being that you use as little as necessary to get the job done. the job? affect a change.
 
#17 ·
They most definitely can be afraid. Big time. Not startled, but deep down, "I'm gonna die" fear. I've ridden Mia in an arena where she worked herself into a state of fear for 2 hours straight. My oldest daughter came out, watched, and said, "Dad, her eyes are rolling like a slot machine! This isn't going to be good..." She was also squirting diarrhea all over - not turds, but green pee from her butt. I ended up pulling her head to one side, wrapping the reins around the horn & jumping off of her. She went the next 8 months unridden, and then started months of professional training. She is vastly better now, but it took years to help her set aside her fears.

Then there is that healthy type of fear. Yesterday, when I had scooped up most of the poop in the corral, Mia came over. When I was a little way off scooping the last pile, she tipped the wheelbarrow over with her nose. I shouted out an obscenity, and at the sound of my voice she spun and sprinted to the farthest point of the corral. The 2 geldings who share the corral with her did not - they knew darn well who tipped the wheelbarrow over! A minute later, she tip-toed back...ears forward, checking to see if she was forgiven.
 
#19 ·
I don't know that I can interpret fear in a horse. I can know what I interpret as fear;however, I am not sure that is the horses genuine emotion. I have seen horses react in what their owner calls "fear" to the vet and that behavior ends up being more aggression and the horse is dangerous. If the choice is between someone getting killed and putting the "fear of god" in that horse. I don't bounce nearly as well as 1000 pounds of horse does. So, having been in certain situations where it was use fear as a respect tool to keep that horse from not seriously injuring someone its appropriate. As others have pointed out, horses are really surprisingly tough. Look at the way yearling stud colts play with one another (rearing, striking, biting, bucking) all things that if they did to me could result in a case of deadness. I don't want to be my horses equal. My horse treats its equals like horses, I want possibly a mother foal relationship. I am the trusted, guardian/food source/ authority in the horses life. My word is the word.

I also don't know that I would hear fear as respect. I think that we can't interpret fear because it is really close the the "he was abused" story line we hear a lot. Which is used to excuse a lot of inappropriate behavior. I look at my dog as an example. He has never been abused, he was used in medical research and not exposed to anything for two years of his life. If I approach him "wrong" (loom over him) he will cower, if I take him to a new environment he will cower. I have never abused this dog, his reaction is a "fear" reaction; however, it stems from lack of experience. Which is less fear and more insecurity. At the end of the day we don't get to know what they are thinking and its dangerous to start ascribing emotions to them.
 
#20 ·
For arguments sake lets just call our perceived fear reaction in a horse 'survival instinct'.....that way we all don't feel bad when our horse is engaging his 'survival instinct' when we are giving him a tune up for kicking:wink:
 
#23 ·
Please elaborate how weaving, cribbing, pawing, kicking, biting, squashing (yes squishing people) all stem from fear or pain. I do believe your 'observation' is a little on the narrow side.
 
#25 ·
Fear needs patience, disrespect needs discipline.
What I'm going to say here is you have to know the difference between fear and disrespect.
Fear needs patience, and a leader to say everything is okay. Disrespect needs a kick in the butt to say 'hey, that's enough!'. The one thing I do not do when disciplining though is smack a horse with my hand.
The polite way to do this though, so a horse doesn't see it as rude in return, is to gently ask them to stop the behaviour the first time, and get firmer the next. When watching horses in herds, they always give each other a warning before they follow through, giving the other horse the chance to correct his behaviour before punishment happens
 
#27 ·
There was once a master horseman of some renown who had three senior students. He was getting older and wanted to retire, and so devised a test for the three students to see who would be his successor and take over his long-established business and clientele. In a round pen was placed a fierce stallion, the kind that would bite and paw you to the ground if you weren't careful (like that one in the movie Buck) and each student was asked to enter the corral in turn.

The first student was courageous and determined and entered the pen with a bull whip to keep the horse from killing her, and with great energy and a lot of dust she managed to drive that horse off until they were both breathing hard and covered in sweat - but the horse was at least not attacking. He had learned who was boss.

The second student took one look at the sight of this horse charging the fence and trying to bite and kick any passerby and decided that the horse was a lost cause and that it wasn't worth the risk of going in there with him.

The third student simply walked into the corral, slipped the halter on the horse, and led him out as if nothing were at all amiss.

The third student was made the successor.
 
#30 ·
There is some evidence to suggest that cribbing and other "stereotypic behaviors" are the result of a condition similar to obsessive compulsive disorder. Some cats with display this with grooming (groom themselves bald). In which case, we are dealing with multiple factors and we can't fit them all in the same box.

I disagree that fear needs "comfort" fear needs to be allayed but not encouraged. As an example, people with growling dogs always say "its okay, don't be scared snookiums, mommy's here" in a really sweet voice. This rewards the dog and tells it that its okay to behave that way. As opposed to a ignoring the behavior. A horse example is that stallion in Buck when he is trying to load it into the trailer. The owner is hanging in the trailer saying "come on honey, get in the trailer". Mr. Brennaman has to tell her to pipe down and let him work. He loads the horse without using his voice but using the horses desire to escape the flags. So, use what fits the situation.
 
#31 ·
I'm pretty sure that no one would identify our old Flo as the leader of our herd, its not unusual to even see Honey (our resident bully) move her out of the way but she is the one that always leads the way through the scary situations, never gets kicked or bitten and when she does want to be somewhere she just gives her 'look' and they all stand back
She's also a great example of how a mare teaches its foal manners by giving them a good nip or even a little kick to remind them how they should behave - she was an abandoned foal that was bottle fed without any discipline at all from her owners, when we took her she was a step away from being shot because she was extremely dangerous without even knowing it was wrong
No amount of nice chats, patience, treats, running her around would have worked on her - essentially I had to become her mother and do to her what her horse mother would have done - give her one really hard whack.
And it worked. I never had to hit her again
Nineteen years later, I couldn't wish for a more loving, willing, trusting horse and she has character in bucket loads so it didn't destroy her personality either. I don't like robot horses.
 
#33 ·
Thank you to all for your thoughts on this. I thought I might make it clear that while I detest any person outright mistreating their horse, I do not condone pushy, disrespectful horses either. I simply will not tolerate being told what to do by any of my horses. If I correct, I do just that. I get in, get the job done and get out. I don’t nag and I accept that I need to keep a lid on my frustrations if I want to maintain a relationship with my horses based on respect and trust. I always give my horses a chance to do the right thing using a light signal (just body language). If I do not get the answer I want, I increase the strength of the signal using other aids until the horse responds in an acceptable way. When I want to increase signal strength I’ll combine the movement of my stick with my body language. On rare occasions the string on my stick has made contact with the horse’s hindquarters since I don’t allow my signals to be ignored. Again, I say what I have to say, once...and get out. That’s the process I use when I know the horse is capable of easily making the right choice. If he is not capable of easily making the right choice (e.g. if learning a new exercise) then I may need to backtrack the training to the point where the right answer comes easily. I’ll continue to ask for more as he gets better. This builds his confidence and trust and in the end progress is faster.

GSSW5: you and I are on the same wavelength

SlideStop: I’d correct the rearing as outlined above for a new exercise.

Bsms: I guess in the beginning fear is there. But one would hope that the horse very quickly learns his fears are unjustified. And a good handler would go out of their way to prove it.

Jaydee: I think we agree more than you think. I don’t see a smack as mistreatment either. I’d likely do the same.

Speed Racer: You’re extrapolating here my friend. I can back up what I said with real quotes.

Foxhunter: You’re probably right. I’ve trained all my horses well enough so that they don’t try to kill me or anyone else. I consider it my responsibly to do that. The technique you describe when clipping horses is called flooding (as you likely well know). It works. But it’s neither kind nor tactful. For the horse it’s a very distressing way to learn something new and it puts you at greater risk when using it. Horses are sensitive creatures and they do learn by pain. But ordinary discomfort will do.

Tinyliny: Totally agree with you and your trainer.

SlideStop: There is a serious time difference between you and me. And one does have to go to work occasionally.
 
#41 ·
Thank you to all for your thoughts on this. I thought I might make it clear that while I detest any person outright mistreating their horse, I do not condone pushy, disrespectful horses either. I simply will not tolerate being told what to do by any of my horses. If I correct, I do just that. I get in, get the job done and get out. I don’t nag and I accept that I need to keep a lid on my frustrations if I want to maintain a relationship with my horses based on respect and trust. I always give my horses a chance to do the right thing using a light signal (just body language). If I do not get the answer I want, I increase the strength of the signal using other aids until the horse responds in an acceptable way. When I want to increase signal strength I’ll combine the movement of my stick with my body language. On rare occasions the string on my stick has made contact with the horse’s hindquarters since I don’t allow my signals to be ignored. Again, I say what I have to say, once...and get out. That’s the process I use when I know the horse is capable of easily making the right choice. If he is not capable of easily making the right choice (e.g. if learning a new exercise) then I may need to backtrack the training to the point where the right answer comes easily. I’ll continue to ask for more as he gets better. This builds his confidence and trust and in the end progress is faster.
I think everyone agrees that it's best to use the lightest cue possible. What I see in some folks training in NH methods is that they do use a light cue, then a less light, then a sort of light, then a heavier, then they push the hrose, then he moves. Almost every time.
They spend so much time in what I call "the grey" area. the horse learns to tolerate the grey area, something which horses don't normally like. they like things black or white. But, if the trainer always goes through step one, two , three, four, five, six with the same speed, intensity , that is a LOT of gray before the trainer actually expects a result .

ETA and I should be honest and say that I am guilty of this kind of nagging from time to time myself.
 
#34 ·
Foxhunter: You’re probably right. I’ve trained all my horses well enough so that they don’t try to kill me or anyone else. I consider it my responsibly to do that. The technique you describe when clipping horses is called flooding (as you likely well know). It works. But it’s neither kind nor tactful. For the horse it’s a very distressing way to learn something new and it puts you at greater risk when using it. Horses are sensitive creatures and they do learn by pain. But ordinary discomfort will do.
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I agree that it is ideal to train a horse not to attack a human! However, there are horses that, usually, through bad training have resorted to this a method of defence.
As for the flooding, any horse that I have used this on, has never had to have more than a word, usually, " eh!" And it relaxes and is well mannered. Most have been good for their owners to be able to clip them afterwards without me there.

Majority of handling horses, or any animal including children, is a matter of confidence. I can often load a difficult horse because I have no doubt that it will load. It works the same with dogs and children. Untrained or spoiled, if they sense the person in charge means what they say and it is a matter of black or white, then they are happy to comply. There might well be a few ups and downs but providing the consistence is there it takes moments to get them to understand.

There are times when you cannot ignore unwanted behaviour. The day a young foal swings its butt to you with the intention of kicking, cannot be ignored. A firm hard slap will send it forward, it has not harmed it but, has given it a shock.

I am not an advocate of beating any animal, I am saying that there are times when very firm handling works.
If I had all the time in the world to train every horse I had had through my hands by ignoring bad and praising good I would not be halfway through training them. Corrections should fit the crime.
 
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