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Friendship Training does work

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11K views 75 replies 21 participants last post by  FrancesB 
#1 ·
Hi everyone,

I noticed a couple of threads late last year discussing Friendship Training. I understand your scepticism, I thought it was too good to be true when I first read the website. After talking to some of the members in their Yahoo group I decided it sounded like it might work - it is soundly based in behavioural science. I was a bit desperate to find something that would work with my stubborn, unconfident, resistant gelding so decided it was worth the risk.

We are still only in the early stages of the program but already it has made an enormous difference to us. He is willing to do as I ask and to try, and a few weeks back when he was galloping with another horse he actually broke off to come stand by me. I realise that it might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I would heartily recommend it to anyone.

Regards
Frances
 
#34 ·
I still see what you have described, to be a pressure-release system. Pressure does not need to be physical contact, just like the dominate horse in a relationship can simply give 'a' look at the submissive horse, and the submissive horse moves away. When the submissive horse moves away, the dominate horse doesn't look at him anymore.

So by standing in front of a horse, saying 'back' and waving your hands around a bit, that IS pressure. The horse is wondering what on earth you are doing and steps back. You then stop waving and give him a pat - release of pressure.
How is this, any different from any other pressure-release system?

Pressure-release does not need to be an escalation in pressure, there are many ways to skin a cat.
Some horses respond best to escalate pressure, others learn best if you ask, then back off, and ask again, like your own horse.
It is STILL pressure-release. I don't know of any single training method that does not use some form of the pressure-release system --- because this is what works for horses. They put some kind of pressure on one another, move away from the pressure, and then they are comfortable. You cannot ask a horse to do anything, without putting some degree of pressure on them. It is not possible.
 
#36 ·
So by standing in front of a horse, saying 'back' and waving your hands around a bit, that IS pressure. The horse is wondering what on earth you are doing and steps back. You then stop waving and give him a pat - release of pressure.
How is this, any different from any other pressure-release system? ]

Hmmmm, I see what you mean, maybe, it could be described as very light pressure, not sure. The hand gestures are very small. Maybe it's pressure & release & positive reinforcement, as he gets the treat as well?

It is surely much much softer in approach than anything anyone local tried to show me, and much softer than the lowest levels of pressure shown to me by a local NH clinician. Some of the other horses seemed to go ok with that, but my boy didn't.
 
#43 ·
Bahahahaha... Send him my way!

As for my mare we tried really hard, but she is just not interested in socializing. She came from almost feral environment (I got her as a long yearling), so may be it's part of it. Plus she's just strange all around.

My qh (who came unhandled but had enough of human socializing before I got her, also as a long yearling) always shows polite interest for as long as the parents or visitors have treats(!), then she doesn't care anymore. :D
 
#44 ·
Northern said ... the human has to be the leader. Horses have no 50/50 relationships; they're always looking for a worthy leader; he's not optimally happy unless he understands whether you're the leader or he is. For the horse to refuse you in front of your friends is truly deleterious for the relationship, because he's alpha there, & he never should be. It's 51%/49% partnership, not master/slave, but it must be that ratio, or you'll regret it.

Pressure-release is what horses do with each other; they understand it, so it's not bad. Yet there's another factor to good horsemanship, which is "feel". People want to leave pressure-release & go on only "feel", but you need both...

I appreciate what you are saying and agree the human has to have the final say in situations where it's important. I spent a lot of time discussing this with the others in the FT forum before I started the program- their advice was that if it's not an important thing it is ok to accept the horse saying no - it doesn't escalate into anything. I'm thinking that it might have something to do with the strength of the person's intent and the horses ability to gauge that strength of intent. When I ask my boy to back up away from a gate or come away from a vehicle or something, I know it is important he do so, and I think perhaps he reads that importance and does as I ask - accepts my leadership so to speak. But when I know it is not really an important thing - like showing my friend how he would back up (basically showing off) I suspect he can also read that it isn't really an important thing, and so decided he didn't really have to back up.

I'm not sure I understand what 'feel' is, but it might explain what went wrong after I bought him. Before I bought him I spent three weeks hanging out with him every day, and when I was grooming or leading or whatever I was very gentle and careful to make sure I had his permission for everything and that he was comfortable with everything I asked, and he was comfortable and much more willing and relaxed with me than anyone else. That gentleness is my natural style of interacting with pretty much everything, and it usually works, but it can be slow. When I bought him I began 'being the boss' - a gentle one but still the boss - because that is what everyone was telling me I needed to be to establish a good relationship with him. So I insisted with gradually increasing pressure until he did what I asked. It seemed to work for them and their horses. LOL, I forgot to notice it hadn't worked for them with him... Anyway, I wasn't all that comfortable being the boss, and I think that did two things - I lost that soft 'asking for permission' which had made him feel safe with me and trust me in the first place, and he would have been able to read my discomfort so I probably looked weak as well. So then I just looked like a weak version of everyone else he didn't like.

The FT approach is much more in line with my natural style, so there is no longer that gap between interaction style and the kind of person I am. It has given me the confidence and patience to ask for what I want, to not be bothered if he says no - to either accept it if it wasn't important or to calmly say 'no, this is important, I have to insist'. Because I don't see a 'no' as a leadership challenge he doesn't turn it into one - does that make sense? Being calm and unruffled seem to be very important to working with him - I guess with any horse but particularly with him - any hint of nerves or aggression or frustration and he responds with the same. FT somehow gives me that strength. The person who was training him for me said he was by far the most stubborn and determined horse he had ever met, and that he was the slowest to trust of any he had worked with. I guess this is why the very slow calm approach FT gives works so well with him.

Thank you for the discussion, it has been very interesting.
 
#45 ·
Nice post, Frances! It is true of PNH also, that when a horse tries to do the opposite of what you ask (like go the opposite way than you asked in the circling game), we don't act like Nazis about it. We allow it, for the give-&-take of the relationship, & then when they see that, they start to WANT to offer you what you'd like.

Great job in reading this horse & giving him the friendliness that he so needed! As long as 1% is taken from his side & is on your side instead, you're good to go!
 
#46 ·
Sorry but I don't believe that alpha horse is the only way horses lead - if you read Mark Raschid he talks about two types of herd leader - the ones that use aggression and pressure to assert authority and the ones that are followed by others simply because they are trusted and respected as leaders.

It is the latter kind of leader I want to be with my horse - I don't often use pressure on her but she accepts my leadership because she wants to - if she doesn't it is usually no big deal. I don't accept it has to be a 51/49 partnership, in my eyes it is an unconditional partnership - sometimes she leads, sometimes I do - horses for courses! Trust and respect is the key - not authority!
 
#47 ·
chrisnscully;1331476 Mark Raschid talks about two types of herd leader - the ones that use aggression and pressure to assert authority and the ones that are followed by others simply because they are trusted and respected as leaders.[/QUOTE said:
Hmmm, sounds like FT is helping me to develop into the second kind of leader.
 
#50 · (Edited)
Really? To a horse that is frightened of you, maybe.

To a horse that WANTS to be with you, your presence is joy.

Sorry, but people have been brainwashed into believing a lot of rubbish about horses - I am sad for them, they will never experience the sheer thrill of working with horses that bond with a human.

Watch Jean Francois Pignon and his horses working totally loose on the beach - if they were under pressure they would move away from it surely?

 
#52 · (Edited)
On the two types of herd leaders: when a cougar is perceived, who takes the lead of these two? The one that seems like nothing more than a bully, according to Rashid's description, or the one who's trusted in some way(s)?

Jean-Francois has a thin crop in the video, & Klaus has what looks to be a longe whip plus a coiled lariat in his video. Pressure-free, they're not! The pressure, once again, is not bad; it's innately understood by horses. It's just to be used as gently as possible (but as firmly as necessary).
 
#54 ·
A herd with an alpha leader will follow it - a herd with a passive leader will follow that, You wouldn't have both types of leaders unless the herd was contained by fencing and split into 2 groups - however, when the cougar is spotted I guess they will all follow the guy who spotted it, cos they would be off first!

Both Jean & Klaus use the whips as extensions of their arm and communications. But surely it cannot be pressure if the horse doesn't see it that way and I would suggest that in both instances the horses are not behaving as if they are pressured at all.

unless they had been conditioned to respond differently. which is not at all difficult and doesn't really involve any degree of friendship and is a more deceptive (to on-lookers) way of pressuring horses into doing what you want, even in situations where there is every opportunity to go and hide miles away from you.
Those horses are motivated to be with their handlers - that isn't pressure - of course they are conditioned - they have been trained in a way that makes them trust the human and respond to them. For that very reason you cannot say that the presence of humans creates pressure for the horse - in these instances clearly it doesn't.

Both Klaus and Jean talk about lifelong friendship with their horses.
 
#58 ·
Frances, I am in the Parelli program and I can totally relate with your last post! There have been so may times I've asked my horse to do something and he will do something way different than what I had in mind, but he will seem so proud of himself that all I can do is laugh and reward him. After all he tried didn't he?

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread because it is a refreshing departure from the usual "How to MAKE your horse do..." training advice. PNH is very similar to FT except we start a bit cruder by using as little or as much physical pressure as needed to convey our ideas to our horses as clearly as we can. The longer one stays with the program the subtler our approaches become, we refine until a glance, gesture, or "change in energy"(which I think has to be experienced to be understood) is all it takes to communicate our ideas to the horse. We NEVER punish our horses, we recognise that any response is either a horse trying to do what we asked, or reacting from fear or confusion. Either way punishment would only damage any bond we have worked so hard to build. My two cents is: keep up with the FT! I think I will also be looking into it some myself.

Thanks for posting, while I was familiar with Rashid, Pignon, Hempfling, and Nevzarov I had never heard of Friendship Training. I love learning new methods that are in line with my fundamental principals of training.
 
#59 ·
Frances, I am in the Parelli program and I can totally relate with your last post! There have been so may times I've asked my horse to do something and he will do something way different than what I had in mind, but he will seem so proud of himself that all I can do is laugh and reward him. After all he tried didn't he?
even "not trying" is a form of "trying"
 
#61 ·
Hmmm, Friendship Training seems to help the human relax and be confident as much as it helps the horse. Yesterday I had my second ride since Christmas on General (19 yo gelding, haven't done FT with him yet); he is a sweetie but also very 'goey' and I have never felt completely safe with him before. Yesterday was just magic. I am/was a bit of a timid rider and am afraid of heights, falling and speed, but none of that yesterday. For me that is pretty amazing.
:)
FrancesB
 
#63 ·
I haven't read up on FT, but from the descriptions here I'm doing a little of both, depending on the circumstances. I work on the "back" command and recalls in the open field with my mare, and always through hand gestures and voice. Where I have to use pressure/release is when she's on lead and gets pushy - then I have to be more stern and assertive.

The field work is coming along nicely. We're still in a battle of wills with the lead on until after I lunge her - then she's compliant.

At any rate, I am going to red up on FT some more and see what I can glean from it. I'm still building a relationship with my mare, so anything I can find to help it along...
 
#65 ·
I thought people might be interested in seeing the kind of relationship I am developing with Jerry (dark horse). When I started this I was often a bit scared of him, certainly rarely confident with him, and he frequently threatened to bite. And he would never have come out of the paddock on request if there was someone strange about.



:)
Frances
 
#67 ·
:) Food is certainly a big part of it at this stage, we have a long way to go yet. Still, it's an enormous improvement over where we were.

Could you explain a little more about what you meant by his demeanour? I'm not quite sure I understood what you meant.
Cheers
Frances
 
#68 ·
He looks very pleasant when food is involved. Not so much when it is not. I am not sure i would turn my back on him as much as you do, that is for sure.

He tends to have his ears back at times. I am not crazy about that for sure, but that is just me. He doesn't give me the feeling that he is as trustworthy as you give him credit for, but then-I am pretty cautious.
 
#69 ·
Ok, thanks. I have looked at the vid again and he does have his ears back a fair bit; I interpret them as 'thinking ears' rather than 'angry ears'. :) I have a pretty good bully detector and don't get any feeling of threat of him these days; I certainly used to.

It is very interesting comparing interpretations.
Cheers
f
 
#70 ·
I had an interesting discussion with my old riding instructor tonight; he hasn't seen Jerry or me since before Christmas. He thought the video I posted showed a big increase in communication between us and that we understand each other much better than when he last saw us, and that whatever I am doing is working.

He was pretty sceptical about FT working before I started this, partly because he didn't see how something like this could be taught over the web and partly because he was concerned for my safety given how challenging Jerry could sometimes be. So for him to say he sees a big improvement is pretty special.

:) I look forward to showing continued improvement.
 
#72 ·
The main website is at Friendship Training
There are links to videos from there.


There is also a Yahoo discussion group at Friendship_Training : Friendship_Training
It is an open list, anyone interested in finding kinder gentler ways with horses is welcome.

There is another discussion group at HorseConscious

If you go back to the previous page on this thread, there is a link to a video I recently put up of my horses & me.

Jerry and I are still in the early stages of Friendship Training, but gee, it has made such a difference to our confidence and trust. I can't believe how much calmer and relaxed and more confident I am, in the saddle and on the ground.

Regards
Frances
 
#74 ·
A new horse joined our herd this week. I am not sure if it is because there were only three horses involved, or because of the personalities of the horses, or because I am doing FT with Jerry, but this is the first time a new horse has joined the herd without someone losing some fur.
 
#75 ·


Teachers of Friendship’s schools are selected from the chars where the schools are located. They are required to have a certain level of education in order to be capable of teaching primary level classes. Through its training programme, Friendship provides every teacher a month-long basic training which includes orientation with the teaching methods, use of educational tools, and orientation with the curriculum. In addition to this, every month, teachers are required to attend a follow-up training for 3 days in one of the four centres located in Chilmari, Kurigram, Gaibandha and Kuakata. At the training teachers and supervisors develop monthly lesson plans, go through orientation on new ideas, report to the supervisor on the work in schools and participate in exercises to improve their teaching skills, among others.

Currently there are 78 teachers working with Friendship.
 
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