He Feels the Need to Dominate All the Time? - Page 4
 
 

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He Feels the Need to Dominate All the Time?

This is a discussion on He Feels the Need to Dominate All the Time? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        07-18-2013, 08:16 PM
      #31
    Trained
    I'm peein' my pants here. You going to love a stallion to death that wants to mount a mare and rider in the same ring? No, you're going to kick his a$$ so he understands who is boss and who is top dog. OMG....... Failing to teach a horse good manners so that he KNOWS that as sure as God made little fishes he's going to DIE if he tries to bite, kick or act the fool, now that is abuse.
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        07-18-2013, 08:17 PM
      #32
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    


    There you have it! I win.
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        07-18-2013, 08:28 PM
      #33
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RememberMeForThis99    
    ...........

    In his stall, he'll reach out and bite any passing horse, he actual bit my mare once and apparently bit someone's saddle.

    1. In this case you need to shut the top door. If there isn't a top door, they need to put him in a stall away from traffic patterns and/or find him a stall with a top door. Anyone he reaches for has they go by needs to haul off and bust him one and send him to the back of his stall.


    Under saddle he cut's other horses off, it's like to his rider; F you, I have to go tell this horse off.


    2. She needs to get after him so hard that he never considers doing that again. I would yank my horse's head around to my knee so that he could not reach another horse, I'd be working him in so many different directions that he couldn't get to another horse. She needs to tune in and FEEL what this horse is about to do, very few horses can plot to do something dirty and not telegraph the intent. The minute she even thinks he's about to go after another horse, she needs to redirect his thoughts and get him thinking of ANYTHING but going after another horse.

    The thing is though, is that she's done the Clinton Anderson Beginner (and maybe Intermediate) stuff, and he does it to a T. Yielding hind quarter, giving at the poll and backing up, one day she backed him up all around the ring. I'm planning on free lounging him to see how he does with that.

    3. Of course he does that all to a T, he's working and paying attention.

    (I was actually in the field, walked up to him and asked him to give and he was perfect, then proceeded, as soon as I walked away, to bite a horse.)

    4. You had released him from his work and he was free to go back to being a horse. You will NEVER stop him from trying to work his way up the pecking order out in the field, it is his nature. If he's haltered and on a lead, that's different, then you are in charge, but when he is loose he is on his time, not yours.

    Also, he hates the gelding next to him and vice versa. Every time one walks by the other's stall, the other will reach out and bite. Yesterday we spent some time just walking Chance by the other horse. If they made angry faces Chance would get a "Oui, listen to me." shake on the lead and the other horse would get a tap with a crop my friend was holding. If they bit it was a smack for both. The other horse isn't even dominate though.

    5. See #1

    So, any idea how I can get this horse to let his handler/rider be the boss, all of the time? It's just like he'll go back and forth between "your the boss" and "I'm the boss" despite her efforts of moving his feet and doing what normally create that "I'm the leader, your the follower" with the horse. Any help/advice/tips/trick/exercises are appreciated!


    6. The only way he will LET her be the leader all the time is if she IS the leader all the time. Horses are very good at knowing when we're waffling, being too lazy to correct them, or timid and they will take over EVERY single time, especially if they have a tendency to dominate anyhow.

    IMO, she needs a pro trainer who will take this horse down to the river and have a serious CTJ meeting with him and not stop till he's fully baptised, seen the error of his ways and comes up out of the water singing, "Glory Hallelujah, I've seen the LIGHT!".
         
        07-18-2013, 09:11 PM
      #34
    Started
    This thread has really intrigued me, it's shown me really clearly how people pick and choose which of the four ways of learning they feel works and refuse to use anything else.

    There are 4 ways every creature capable of learning, learns:
    + Punishment: The addition of something unwanted, resulting in a decrease in frequency of a behavior. (This would be wallopping the horse for biting a passer-by)
    - Punishment: The removal of something desired, resulting in a decrease in frequency of behavior. (This hasn't been suggested, but taking away something that makes the horse happy, when he's acting aggressively)
    + Reinforcement: The addition of something desired, resulting in an increase in frequency of behavior (this could be allowing the horse to relax and be left alone when he's not aggressive, or a more obvious one would be giving him a treat if he didn't react aggressively)
    - Reinforcement: The removal of something unwanted, resulting in an increase in frequency of behavior (this is when you make a horse uncomfortable - or painful- until he responds correctly, at which point he gets relief from the pain or discomfort)

    What's interesting to me in this situation is that each person is looking at the situation at if only 1 of those ways of learning will actually work - when in actuality the best way to handle any learning situation is to mix them all.

    Another interesting tidbit I noticed while reading this thread, everyone is assuming that what we perceive as punishment is actually what the horse perceives as a punishment. So, for example, people say "hit him if he acts out aggressively" - now this will work if the horse finds the slap truly undesirable. But I know many a gelding who just loves to spar, and if you whack at them they'll likely think it's a game and take enjoyment out of it. This is why if you want it to work as actual punishment and not reinforcement you would need to be sure to take this to a serious extreme and really hurt or terrify the horse - beyond just the level of "playing".
    We are also assuming that what we think in reinforcing (allowing the horse to relax away from the others) when he behaves correctly, we are assuming is something the horse actually wants. When in actuality the horse could perceive standing calmly as being obnoxious, he wants to be over there kick-butt, not standing quietly.
    I'm not saying for sure this is what the horse is thinking, I haven't seen him or watched his reactions - all I'm saying is we're doing an awful lot of assuming we know what the horse wants and doesn't want. We're also really limiting which tools you can and can't use for training, eliminating entire methods of teaching and learning.
         
        07-18-2013, 09:18 PM
      #35
    Banned
    Punks - TBH I don't care what the horse 'wants', he gets what he wants 23hrs of the day while he's hanging out with his buddies eating hay in the pasture. For the two hours he's with me he better have manners and be polite, BY THE WAY a gelding that plays games when reprimanded has obviously been spoiled and never reprimanded correctly and consistently. JMO.
         
        07-18-2013, 09:24 PM
      #36
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    Punks - TBH I don't care what the horse 'wants', he gets what he wants 23hrs of the day while he's hanging out with his buddies eating hay in the pasture. For the two hours he's with me he better have manners and be polite, BY THE WAY a gelding that plays games when reprimanded has obviously been spoiled and never reprimanded correctly and consistently. JMO.
    I'm not talking about what the horse "Wants" or doesn't "Want" I'm saying, what we perceive as something the horse doesn't want (getting hit) may not actually be something he doesn't want, or something we think the horse wants (being left alone) may actually not be something he wants. So we could be encouraging a behavior to continue by using something we assume he doesn't want as punishment, when in fact he does want it and thinks "this is how I get what I want".
    I have a pony at my rescue who nips people who walk by, everyone throws hissy fits and squak and throw things at him and hit him, he thinks it's hilarious!! so while they think they're punishing him, he's actually really enjoying it. Obviously he enjoys it - because he keeps doing it more and more. But when everyone was told to stay out of his reach and completely ignore him, he only got attention of any sort when he was good - his behavior quickly changed.

    I'm not saying "just give him everything he wants" I'm saying, make sure when you think you're punishing him or when you think you're rewarding him, make sure the horse also perceives it as punishment or reward.
         
        07-18-2013, 09:36 PM
      #37
    Yearling
    Thats where paying attention comes into play. Lets use kids as an example: positive and negative reinforcement are very very different for each of my kids. Timeout works great for my hyperactive son, because h3 hates staying still with a passion. My daughter wasnt phased. Positive reinforcement varies too.

    One of my horses is a slug....moving her is a punishment, but she is not phased at all by a whip, or getting tapped with it....she truly doesn't care or notice. All my others have a rather unreasonable horror of whips that I haven't had the chance to work out yet.

    All we can really do is offer generalities regarding correction and reinforcement. It seems like usng generalities and correcting as needed works out pretty well, given common sense.
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        07-18-2013, 09:50 PM
      #38
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by demonwolfmoon    
    Thats where paying attention comes into play. Lets use kids as an example: positive and negative reinforcement are very very different for each of my kids. Timeout works great for my hyperactive son, because h3 hates staying still with a passion. My daughter wasnt phased. Positive reinforcement varies too.

    One of my horses is a slug....moving her is a punishment, but she is not phased at all by a whip, or getting tapped with it....she truly doesn't care or notice. All my others have a rather unreasonable horror of whips that I haven't had the chance to work out yet.

    All we can really do is offer generalities regarding correction and reinforcement. It seems like usng generalities and correcting as needed works out pretty well, given common sense.

    Absolutely, and with horses, who don't speak english, the only thing we can do is look at the results to figure out how the horse thinks. For example, my nipping pony, they thought they were punishing him by hitting him, whipping him, throwing cold water at him, any of the above - but the behavior continued and even got worse - so clearly they were reinforcing the skill. (punishment=something that decreases a frequency of behavior reinforcement= something that increases a frequency of behavior).

    With the naughty pony I knew they had 2 options to try, they either needed to step up their+Punishment by attacking him until he really, really hurt or they needed to try a different approach. The opted to use -Punishment, by removing what he wanted to tell him he was acting wrong. He wanted to watch humans jump and squeal, so by staying out of his reach and paying him no attention when he was naughty, he quickly learned that the behavior got him no where.
    We are taking is one step further with our naughty pony, we taught him to touch a target (using positive reinforcement) and he learned good things happen when he stands at his target and ignores when someone walks by. For now, when we walk by his stall, if he goes to his target we drop a tid-bit of food in his bucket, he knows this and is always on top of it! Now we're slowly beginning to not always drop the food - but to him, it's worth the gamble, he'd rather be on that target, just in case we have something for him. He's still learning but coming along well.
    demonwolfmoon likes this.
         
        07-18-2013, 11:15 PM
      #39
    Trained
    OMG! ROFL!!! I was reading in another forum and they're discussing the "crazy training" techniques they've run into. Maybe these would work for the more touchy feely?

    Woman wore a crystal and walked around the horse 3 times in a circle of peace and it didn't help the problem.

    Buyer & family was found full Indian regalia, with fire sticks, horse and people all painted up, dancing around the horse in a circle, in an attempt to get the horse's spirit to bond with theirs.

    I think these make at least as much sense as some of the other stuff we've read.
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        07-18-2013, 11:37 PM
      #40
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians    
    OMG! ROFL!!! I was reading in another forum and they're discussing the "crazy training" techniques they've run into. Maybe these would work for the more touchy feely?

    Woman wore a crystal and walked around the horse 3 times in a circle of peace and it didn't help the problem.

    Buyer & family was found full Indian regalia, with fire sticks, horse and people all painted up, dancing around the horse in a circle, in an attempt to get the horse's spirit to bond with theirs.

    I think these make at least as much sense as some of the other stuff we've read.
    I'm not sure if that's meant to be a slight against what I posted? If it is, You don't need to agree with how other people train, you don't need to practice what everyone else does - but please don't go insulting something you haven't researched completely.
    Either disregard it or learn enough about it to have a valuable reason why you do or don't want to use it.
    The information I posted about is science, information on how creatures learn. We all learn the same ways, horses aren't unique or different that can only learn one way - they learn all the same ways every other creature does. Finding the balance is what's most important.

    If I'm unwanted here I'm happy to step out of the thread, but I figured I'd post what I saw - take from it what you will. Just please don't go insulting something you've never tried.
         

    Tags
    dominate, gelding, leadership

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