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He Feels the Need to Dominate All the Time?

6K views 54 replies 19 participants last post by  Foxtail Ranch 
#1 ·
My friend and I are working with a horse for a fellow boarder, she wants to try us (my friend works with a couple of the horses with less experienced owners and I've been seen riding with an umbrella on a 5 yo tb and we both loves natural horsemanship) before paying a bunch for a professional trainer. Her gelding, Chance, is a 6 yo walker who wasn't ridden until he was 5, and she got him when he was 4- I'm unsure weather or not she gentled him herself but I would think so as she's been around horses all her life and knows a thing or two. The reason she asked for her help is that Chance, who cares about his position in the pecking order and is currently top dog but still fighting (his herd is the more feisty herd), has just been a butt on the ground, in his stall and under saddle.

In his stall, he'll reach out and bite any passing horse, he actual bit my mare once and apparently bit someone's saddle. In the field he's of course bossy, always moving the other horses feet whenever he can. I'm planning on taking a chair and my camera and just watching them for a while. Under saddle he cut's other horses off, it's like to his rider; F you, I have to go tell this horse off.

The thing is though, is that she's done the Clinton Anderson Beginner (and maybe Intermediate) stuff, and he does it to a T. Yielding hind quarter, giving at the poll (I was actually in the field, walked up to him and asked him to give and he was perfect, then proceeded, as soon as I walked away, to bite a horse.) and backing up, one day she backed him up all around the ring. I'm planning on free lounging him to see how he does with that.

Also, he hates the gelding next to him and vice versa. Every time one walks by the other's stall, the other will reach out and bite. Yesterday we spent some time just walking Chance by the other horse. If they made angry faces Chance would get a "Oui, listen to me." shake on the lead and the other horse would get a tap with a crop my friend was holding. If they bit it was a smack for both. The other horse isn't even dominate though.

So, any idea how I can get this horse to let his handler/rider be the boss, all of the time? It's just like he'll go back and forth between "your the boss" and "I'm the boss" despite her efforts of moving his feet and doing what normally create that "I'm the leader, your the follower" with the horse. Any help/advice/tips/trick/exercises are appreciated!
 
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#2 · (Edited by Moderator)
I'd give him a tail whooping......that's one thing all this NH training doesn't teach people and that's why they have trouble with more dominant horses.
 
#4 ·
I'd give him an *** whooping......that's one thing all this NH training doesn't teach people and that's why they have trouble with more dominant horses.

Horses do not understand punishment.
1.) They are prey animals.
2.) By the time you want to "punish" them, they have forgotten what they did that was right or wrong.
3.) Beating them or punishing horses DOES NOT help in nay way shape or form. If I ever see any of my students or the friend that is borrowing my horse, then her first warning will be verbal. Her second warning is that she will get off the horse and watch for the rest of the day without participating with horses for the rest of the day. Her third warning with be #2 as well as she will load everything up into the trailer and clean out the horse dung and do anything else I tell her to. Her last warning will be that she will not be able to use any of my horses and she will not be allowed to participate in any lesson.

Timing is everything, so if you want to reward good behavior - you need to stop immediately after he does good so he understands better.
 
#3 ·
This is just how to get good ground manners, the horse respecting you, the horse listening to you and only you, and any other horses he sees or objects he sees he shouldn't pay much attention to.

DO lots of groundwork.
Circle him no more than four circles, then untrack him. Then go the other way and untrack him.
Pivot his fore and hindquarters. Start with a step, then stop and let it soak in. Then go to two steps, then stop. Then three, etc.
Turn him around. Take the leadrope and put it on the other side of him that you are. Then bring the tail of the leadrope around his behind and lightly pull on it until he turns away from you and around to face the other direction.
Back him up by just standing in front of him and wiggling the leadrope until he takes a step back. Then stop and let it soak in. Then two steps, then stop. Then three, etc.
When you walk with him, test his speeds. He should follow your every move.
If you speed up randomly, so should he. When you slow down suddenly, so should he. When you run with him and stop from a trot, he should be prepared for that and stop with you. If he likes to crowd you, keep your elbow up so if HE moves his head around towards you, HE hits HIS OWN face and learns from that.
Horses are prey animals - they do not understand punishment.

If you would like me to explain any of these more thoroughly, please let me know and I will do my best.
 
#6 ·
They are not punishing each other. They are correcting each other to think twice about what they did in ways horses understand much better than punishment.

I am very tempted to turn you in for horse abuse.
 
#7 · (Edited by Moderator)
They ARE punishing each other for overstepping boundaries. Call it what you want, and feel free to 'turn me in' for kicking my horses tail for trying to kick another horse. While you're at it take down all the other forum members names here too that believe in giving a horse a tune up for dangerous and unacceptable behaviours. OMG!
 
#8 ·
I do correct my horse - in ways he understands better.
Never should you beat a horse or hit a horse. They can understand better or the same in ways where you don't hit the horse.
OMG!
 
#13 ·
is that the same horse you were riding even though he was in pain? If so, I imagine he REALLY doesn't wanna t you off!

Explain to me punishing vs correcting? I watch the head mare tear flesh from my others in the field for not moving away, or not doing it fast enough to suit her. why is that a correction, bit Muppetgirl correcting her horse is punishment?

PS, I do not beat my horses lol. So if you disagree with me, not sure what I can be turned in for, assuming you can find the contact info. Threatening people who are not endangering their livestock makes you come across as an internet bully. :(
 
#10 ·
There's more abusive tactics than giving a horse a tune up for being a nasty butt. For example riding a lame horse, now that's abuse.
 
#14 ·
You are abusing your horse in many forms.
I actually have enough respect for my horse not to abuse him in any way, unlike many people I know here.

I am done talking to you people like this - it is not worth my time and I much rather give respect to my horse than people like you.
 
#17 ·
lets get this straight. my head mare biting chunks out of my other horses....correction.

muppet correcting her horse under saddle....abuse.

you riding a lamed up horse....not abuse.

conversations over in multiple threads when people don't agree with you.

are you here for advice or not? you dont own the internet....put a feeler out for advice and anyone can respond, like it or not.
 
#19 ·
I choose my punishment severity depending on how bad my horse's disobedience was. When my 3 year old kicked me last year, you can bet I made her think she was going to die. My horse doesn't move, I ask with increasing pressure and if she still won't move, I will smack her with an open palm. It's no different than a horse biting another to make them move. If you think my open palm smack is abuse then you would be shocked to see some of the things I've seen.
 
#20 ·
I guess I abused a 3 yr old that was determined to go right over top of me. My thick rope slapped her as hard as I could upside the jaw to turn her away. I avoided getting trampled but she came at me again and she got it again. Again it turned her away. Her immediate change of attitude saved her from going to slaughter. And that is my abuse story. Had she charged another horse she'd have met with either a set of teeth delivering a hard bite or a set of heels to drive her off.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I personally believe in making what you want them to do appealling and what you don't unappealing. Like when we were walking Chance by the other horse they both got a pet and where left to themselfs when they didn't try to bite. But that is my own training opinion. I will never force any of you to use it, but i am interested in your own.

Amberly (and anyone else), what would you do if when, under saddle, the horse you were riding stomped towards another ridden horse and cut them off/bite him?
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#23 ·
At the risk of being reported - I'd make him turtle so fast he'd wish he never tried. I'd spank his butt and roll my spurs, then I'd pony horses of him and dare him to be a butt head. My personal safety and that of the other people and horses around me is more important than the 'imaginary butt hurt feelings' my nasty horse would feel. Going to call my lawyer.
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hi,

I don't really follow any method except the rule of "Make the wrong thing hard, and the right thing easy."

How can he just 'cut other riders off' when the rider is supposed to be steering him? Does he ignore her leg? Then she needs to reinforce her leg aid with something like a crop. As soon as he listens, then you go back to a soft leg cue again.

Have you thought that MAYBE the reason he is biting is because he is in pain? We had a mare that acted like this. Turns out she had chronic head pains due to running into a tree at a young age. She was always in pain and thus lashed out at other horses, not correcting them just plain going after them.

She is also the mare that would buck under saddle, go to bite others for no reason.. a pain on the ground, under saddle, and in her stall, despite how much ground work or how many corrections or tail-whoopings she got from horse and human alike.

Once she was treated, her attitude changed signiciantly.

It's worth investigating.

Vet, chiropractor, and any other holistic approach. Find something that helps him out, and paired with good handling and riding skills (I don't see how shaking a rope does anything to stop poor behavior..) will turn this horse into a respectable mount.
 
#31 ·
I'm peein' my pants here. You gonna love a stallion to death that wants to mount a mare and rider in the same ring? No, you're gonna kick his a$$ so he understands who is boss and who is top dog. OMG....... Failing to teach a horse good manners so that he KNOWS that as sure as God made little fishes he's going to DIE if he tries to bite, kick or act the fool, now that is abuse.
 
#33 ·
...........

In his stall, he'll reach out and bite any passing horse, he actual bit my mare once and apparently bit someone's saddle.

1. In this case you need to shut the top door. If there isn't a top door, they need to put him in a stall away from traffic patterns and/or find him a stall with a top door. Anyone he reaches for has they go by needs to haul off and bust him one and send him to the back of his stall.


Under saddle he cut's other horses off, it's like to his rider; F you, I have to go tell this horse off.


2. She needs to get after him so hard that he never considers doing that again. I would yank my horse's head around to my knee so that he could not reach another horse, I'd be working him in so many different directions that he couldn't get to another horse. She needs to tune in and FEEL what this horse is about to do, very few horses can plot to do something dirty and not telegraph the intent. The minute she even thinks he's about to go after another horse, she needs to redirect his thoughts and get him thinking of ANYTHING but going after another horse.

The thing is though, is that she's done the Clinton Anderson Beginner (and maybe Intermediate) stuff, and he does it to a T. Yielding hind quarter, giving at the poll and backing up, one day she backed him up all around the ring. I'm planning on free lounging him to see how he does with that.

3. Of course he does that all to a T, he's working and paying attention.

(I was actually in the field, walked up to him and asked him to give and he was perfect, then proceeded, as soon as I walked away, to bite a horse.)

4. You had released him from his work and he was free to go back to being a horse. You will NEVER stop him from trying to work his way up the pecking order out in the field, it is his nature. If he's haltered and on a lead, that's different, then you are in charge, but when he is loose he is on his time, not yours.

Also, he hates the gelding next to him and vice versa. Every time one walks by the other's stall, the other will reach out and bite. Yesterday we spent some time just walking Chance by the other horse. If they made angry faces Chance would get a "Oui, listen to me." shake on the lead and the other horse would get a tap with a crop my friend was holding. If they bit it was a smack for both. The other horse isn't even dominate though.

5. See #1

So, any idea how I can get this horse to let his handler/rider be the boss, all of the time? It's just like he'll go back and forth between "your the boss" and "I'm the boss" despite her efforts of moving his feet and doing what normally create that "I'm the leader, your the follower" with the horse. Any help/advice/tips/trick/exercises are appreciated!


6. The only way he will LET her be the leader all the time is if she IS the leader all the time. Horses are very good at knowing when we're waffling, being too lazy to correct them, or timid and they will take over EVERY single time, especially if they have a tendency to dominate anyhow.

IMO, she needs a pro trainer who will take this horse down to the river and have a serious CTJ meeting with him and not stop till he's fully baptised, seen the error of his ways and comes up out of the water singing, "Glory Hallelujah, I've seen the LIGHT!".
 
#34 ·
This thread has really intrigued me, it's shown me really clearly how people pick and choose which of the four ways of learning they feel works and refuse to use anything else.

There are 4 ways every creature capable of learning, learns:
+ Punishment: The addition of something unwanted, resulting in a decrease in frequency of a behavior. (This would be wallopping the horse for biting a passer-by)
- Punishment: The removal of something desired, resulting in a decrease in frequency of behavior. (This hasn't been suggested, but taking away something that makes the horse happy, when he's acting aggressively)
+ Reinforcement: The addition of something desired, resulting in an increase in frequency of behavior (this could be allowing the horse to relax and be left alone when he's not aggressive, or a more obvious one would be giving him a treat if he didn't react aggressively)
- Reinforcement: The removal of something unwanted, resulting in an increase in frequency of behavior (this is when you make a horse uncomfortable - or painful- until he responds correctly, at which point he gets relief from the pain or discomfort)

What's interesting to me in this situation is that each person is looking at the situation at if only 1 of those ways of learning will actually work - when in actuality the best way to handle any learning situation is to mix them all.

Another interesting tidbit I noticed while reading this thread, everyone is assuming that what we perceive as punishment is actually what the horse perceives as a punishment. So, for example, people say "hit him if he acts out aggressively" - now this will work if the horse finds the slap truly undesirable. But I know many a gelding who just loves to spar, and if you whack at them they'll likely think it's a game and take enjoyment out of it. This is why if you want it to work as actual punishment and not reinforcement you would need to be sure to take this to a serious extreme and really hurt or terrify the horse - beyond just the level of "playing".
We are also assuming that what we think in reinforcing (allowing the horse to relax away from the others) when he behaves correctly, we are assuming is something the horse actually wants. When in actuality the horse could perceive standing calmly as being obnoxious, he wants to be over there kick-butt, not standing quietly.
I'm not saying for sure this is what the horse is thinking, I haven't seen him or watched his reactions - all I'm saying is we're doing an awful lot of assuming we know what the horse wants and doesn't want. We're also really limiting which tools you can and can't use for training, eliminating entire methods of teaching and learning.
 
#35 ·
Punks - TBH I don't care what the horse 'wants', he gets what he wants 23hrs of the day while he's hanging out with his buddies eating hay in the pasture. For the two hours he's with me he better have manners and be polite, BY THE WAY a gelding that plays games when reprimanded has obviously been spoiled and never reprimanded correctly and consistently. JMO.
 
#36 ·
I'm not talking about what the horse "Wants" or doesn't "Want" I'm saying, what we perceive as something the horse doesn't want (getting hit) may not actually be something he doesn't want, or something we think the horse wants (being left alone) may actually not be something he wants. So we could be encouraging a behavior to continue by using something we assume he doesn't want as punishment, when in fact he does want it and thinks "this is how I get what I want".
I have a pony at my rescue who nips people who walk by, everyone throws hissy fits and squak and throw things at him and hit him, he thinks it's hilarious!! so while they think they're punishing him, he's actually really enjoying it. Obviously he enjoys it - because he keeps doing it more and more. But when everyone was told to stay out of his reach and completely ignore him, he only got attention of any sort when he was good - his behavior quickly changed.

I'm not saying "just give him everything he wants" I'm saying, make sure when you think you're punishing him or when you think you're rewarding him, make sure the horse also perceives it as punishment or reward.
 
#37 ·
Thats where paying attention comes into play. lets use kids as an example: positive and negative reinforcement are very very different for each of my kids. Timeout works great for my hyperactive son, because h3 hates staying still with a passion. My daughter wasnt phased. Positive reinforcement varies too.

One of my horses is a slug....moving her is a punishment, but she is not phased at all by a whip, or getting tapped with it....she truly doesn't care or notice. All my others have a rather unreasonable horror of whips that I haven't had the chance to work out yet.

All we can really do is offer generalities regarding correction and reinforcement. it seems like usng generalities and correcting as needed works out pretty well, given common sense.
 
#38 · (Edited)
Absolutely, and with horses, who don't speak english, the only thing we can do is look at the results to figure out how the horse thinks. For example, my nipping pony, they thought they were punishing him by hitting him, whipping him, throwing cold water at him, any of the above - but the behavior continued and even got worse - so clearly they were reinforcing the skill. (punishment=something that decreases a frequency of behavior reinforcement= something that increases a frequency of behavior).

With the naughty pony I knew they had 2 options to try, they either needed to step up their+Punishment by attacking him until he really, really hurt or they needed to try a different approach. The opted to use -Punishment, by removing what he wanted to tell him he was acting wrong. He wanted to watch humans jump and squeal, so by staying out of his reach and paying him no attention when he was naughty, he quickly learned that the behavior got him no where.
We are taking is one step further with our naughty pony, we taught him to touch a target (using positive reinforcement) and he learned good things happen when he stands at his target and ignores when someone walks by. For now, when we walk by his stall, if he goes to his target we drop a tid-bit of food in his bucket, he knows this and is always on top of it! Now we're slowly beginning to not always drop the food - but to him, it's worth the gamble, he'd rather be on that target, just in case we have something for him. He's still learning but coming along well.
 
#39 ·
OMG! ROFL!!! I was reading in another forum and they're discussing the "crazy training" techniques they've run into. Maybe these would work for the more touchy feely?

Woman wore a crystal and walked around the horse 3 times in a circle of peace and it didn't help the problem.

Buyer & family was found full Indian regalia, with fire sticks, horse and people all painted up, dancing around the horse in a circle, in an attempt to get the horse's spirit to bond with theirs.

I think these make at least as much sense as some of the other stuff we've read.
 
#40 ·
I'm not sure if that's meant to be a slight against what I posted? If it is, You don't need to agree with how other people train, you don't need to practice what everyone else does - but please don't go insulting something you haven't researched completely.
Either disregard it or learn enough about it to have a valuable reason why you do or don't want to use it.
The information I posted about is science, information on how creatures learn. We all learn the same ways, horses aren't unique or different that can only learn one way - they learn all the same ways every other creature does. Finding the balance is what's most important.

If I'm unwanted here I'm happy to step out of the thread, but I figured I'd post what I saw - take from it what you will. Just please don't go insulting something you've never tried.
 
#45 ·
Something just popped in my head that a supervisor told me once when I was having issues with some people I was leading. He said that sometimes you need to get on their level to make them understand & get your point across. Find their "currency", and use that to get their attention

OP, I think you have the right idea, just need to tweek it a little. I was taught you have only a few seconds 3-5 IMMEDIETLY after a negative action to correct that action before the horse won't associate the punishment with the behavior. From your description of the horse, he still thinks he's the overall boss, and just graces you with his cooperation when he feels like it.

If a horse I was riding went to attack another horse, I've been known to make a fool of myself going absolutely bats**t crazy on them for those 3 seconds. No different than he would do in the pasture to a lower horse that was doing something he didn't like. When my time is up, it's all best buds, you're the greatest horse ever, relaxed, pleasant, blah, blah. THE SECOND he acts aggressive, I'm right there to be more aggressive. Once again, just for those few seconds like what would happen in the herd.

Watch them out in their pasture once. The alpha will decide to discipline a lower horse for whatever reason, very very rarely do they go more than a few seconds. And a lot of times, can be seen grazing next to each other in the next moment.

Get to this horses level, find his currency and use it :)
 
#46 ·
There's a heck of a lot of condescending attitude here. Cant y'all make your points without that?

I think ther ARE horse who get worse if punished with hitting, even if done in the correct timing. It makes them fight back instead of give ground like 99.9% of horses will.

The thing to do with a horse like described by the OP would be to get his mind onto something else BEFORE it goes off to wanting to bite another horse. So, you'd have to be watching him, looking for signs that he's starting to think about something other than his handler, something like biting, and do something that immediately moves his thoughts off of that. So that you interrupt him when he gets to thinking thous dominance thoughts. Once interrupted, you have 1 or2 seconds to get him thinking on something else. But the trick is to interrupt his thought before it takes form in action. Not punish him but shake things up so he loses that focus, and in fact , going there mentally becomes uncomfortable due to you constantly interrupting that thought.

This means you have to be very aware of where his thought is and ready to act before he can carry out that thought.
 
#48 ·
Based on what the OP said, the horse has an ego & thinks it's OK to flaunt it. From what I get from it, the horse doesn't want to accept that someone is higher in the pecking order than he is (they said he is always challenging/fighting to keep authority). The horse needs to understand that while that may be fine and dandy when we aren't around, that crap STOPS when he's with us.

In this case diverting isn't going to do a thing. By the time you realize what happened, the deed will already be done. It happens in a split second. He could be riding nice and quietly along the rail, swing his head over to take a bite out of someone next to him, and put it right back like nothing ever happened. How would you divert that? Start doing circles? But the deeds already been done.

If you give him treats for walking past another horse without having an attitude, he's not going to associate the 2. WAY to big of a picture to grasp.

But like someone said earlier, your best & SAFEST bet would be to send to a trainer that's dealt with stuff like this before.
 
#50 ·
If you give him treats for walking past another horse without having an attitude, he's not going to associate the 2. WAY to big of a picture to grasp.

But like someone said earlier, your best & SAFEST bet would be to send to a trainer that's dealt with stuff like this before.
I think you underestimate a horse's ability to figure out how to get food. My Belgian for example new how to get food. He has a top and bottom door, the top door has a latch that swings open and shut, he lifted it and swung it open. Then he reached over and opened the latch on his bottom door. He wriggled his nose on his stall guard until the clip broke. Then he walked through the barn and opened the grain bin. Luckily I saw it all on the cameras and was able to run downstairs fast enough to get him back in his stall. Then I tied his stall latches. Horses know how to get food. They understand what they need to do to make it happen.
But you are right, getting him to not act aggressively at first would be difficult. Because it was very rare when my pony didn't act aggressively to anyone passing by, we couldn't just feed when he was behaving, it didn't happen often enough. This is why I put a target in his stall and reinforce the target heavily, then when I walked by I told him to target, and dropped the food and kept going. I repeated this until I no longer had to ask. Then had new people ask him and drop food, until anyone could walk by and he would be on his target. Then we added horses and so on. From here now we've switched to "intermittent reinforcement" where he only gets treats sometimes, gradually reducing them until he only gets one very rarely. But because the skill is so reinforced it becomes worth the gamble for him to be on that target, just in case we have food.

I'm not saying anyone has to use my method - just mentioned what I did in a similar situation that worked. :)
 
#51 · (Edited)
That's the beauty of Skinnerian conditioning as a model for behaviour. The interpretation, the "why," doesn't matter so much That kind of reductionist thinking has it's limitations, of course, but when training animals, I usually find it more useful to look as objectively as I can at the variables that cause increase or decrease of behaviour. It also removes potentially inaccurate and useless negative associations from the equation, i.e. saying a horse is "lazy." Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but if you think of your horse as being lazy and needing a better work ethic, you end up approaching the horse with a more antagonistic disposition. If you think of your horse as not being well enough conditioned to move quickly off the leg aid (many are not) and he needs to learn this behaviour, you can think of this as a teaching problem and be less emotionally invested in the whole "Lazy sod. I'll show him" convictions you see at many barns.

Engaging in equine psychoanalysis, on the other hand, has far more pitfalls and is far more reflective of the person doing the analysing than perhaps the horse.
 
#53 ·
Exactly!! Thank you for wording it so well, I'm not very good at turning my thoughts into words. :P
I would love your insight over on the clicker training thread, another person who knows alot about behavior science and the science of learning wrote all about these sorts of things, you could probably add a lot too. If you have the time, this is the thread: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tra...challenge-accepted-153311/page24/#post3104962
 
#55 ·
I've used both punishment and food reward for this kind of issue. When I am anywhere in the vacinity and one of them "bosses" another, I do what Muppetgorl and others have described.

This morning I threw a feed pan at my gelding because he was pushing another horse while I was there. It really surprised him and the look on his face was priceless!

When we ride, we like to ride side by side on old logging roads. I was anoid by having to urge the horses forward or hold them back. My horses just did not like to ride side by side! They didn't pin ears or kick because they knew they would get the wrath, but they were not helping either. That's when I started looking for those moments when both were traveling side by side, ears forward, relaxed and compliant. Then I clicked and treated both. It worked well! I waited longer and longer to reward, then even started looking for when they were stepping in time to each other.

All my horses now travel side by side willingly. I don't CT for it anymore, it's just expected. We can also stop close together and share a shot (or two)of whiskey and my formerly snarky horses touch shoulders and hips while we sip.
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