He Feels the Need to Dominate All the Time? - Page 5
 
 

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He Feels the Need to Dominate All the Time?

This is a discussion on He Feels the Need to Dominate All the Time? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        07-18-2013, 11:54 PM
      #41
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PunksTank    
    I'm not sure if that's meant to be a slight against what I posted? If it is, You don't need to agree with how other people train, you don't need to practice what everyone else does - but please don't go insulting something you haven't researched completely.
    Either disregard it or learn enough about it to have a valuable reason why you do or don't want to use it.
    The information I posted about is science, information on how creatures learn. We all learn the same ways, horses aren't unique or different that can only learn one way - they learn all the same ways every other creature does. Finding the balance is what's most important.

    If I'm unwanted here I'm happy to step out of the thread, but I figured I'd post what I saw - take from it what you will. Just please don't go insulting something you've never tried.
    That wasn't directed at you. I don't necessarily agree with what you've posted but you're welcome to use what works for you, just like I use what works for me. I posted that stuff because I thought it was funny and knew others would to.
         
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        07-18-2013, 11:57 PM
      #42
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians    
    OMG! ROFL!!! I was reading in another forum and they're discussing the "crazy training" techniques they've run into. Maybe these would work for the more touchy feely?

    Woman wore a crystal and walked around the horse 3 times in a circle of peace and it didn't help the problem.

    Buyer & family was found full Indian regalia, with fire sticks, horse and people all painted up, dancing around the horse in a circle, in an attempt to get the horse's spirit to bond with theirs.

    I think these make at least as much sense as some of the other stuff we've read.
    Could you message me a link to this? I'm curious!
         
        07-19-2013, 06:28 AM
      #43
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PunksTank    
    I'm not sure if that's meant to be a slight against what I posted? If it is, You don't need to agree with how other people train, you don't need to practice what everyone else does - but please don't go insulting something you haven't researched completely.
    Either disregard it or learn enough about it to have a valuable reason why you do or don't want to use it.
    The information I posted about is science, information on how creatures learn. We all learn the same ways, horses aren't unique or different that can only learn one way - they learn all the same ways every other creature does. Finding the balance is what's most important.

    If I'm unwanted here I'm happy to step out of the thread, but I figured I'd post what I saw - take from it what you will. Just please don't go insulting something you've never tried.
    Aye, everything Punkstank posted is pretty well established behavioural science. Everyone who trains horses or any other animal (or children) uses Skinnerian conditioning or aspects thereof. Everyone. Whether they know it or not. And whether they're any good or not, as it's just as easy to reinforce the "wrong" thing (from the human perspective anyway) and wonder why the horse's behaviour isn't improving as it is to reinforce the behaviour you want.
         
        07-19-2013, 11:21 AM
      #44
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thesilverspear    
    Aye, everything Punkstank posted is pretty well established behavioural science. Everyone who trains horses or any other animal (or children) uses Skinnerian conditioning or aspects thereof. Everyone. Whether they know it or not. And whether they're any good or not, as it's just as easy to reinforce the "wrong" thing (from the human perspective anyway) and wonder why the horse's behaviour isn't improving as it is to reinforce the behaviour you want.
    Thanks, that reminds me of a great point - food rewards are often looked down on in the horse community, because it's such a strong reinforcer. Anything a horse was doing when it got the food, it's going to do bigger and better next time. The trouble comes when people feed them at the wrong time - when they're invading your space or being rude. Then next time they're even more rude or invasive. While if you provide a food reward when they're doing something you want to see more of the horse will repeat that action.

    Sometimes humans think horses are dumb or rude or bad - when the truth is, most often it's because we're reinforcing and punishing the wrong things. Or using things we think are punishing or reinforcing, that the horse just doesn't see the same way. If a behavior stops or continues it's because something in punishing or reinforcing it.
    Ian McDonald likes this.
         
        07-19-2013, 01:39 PM
      #45
    Yearling
    Something just popped in my head that a supervisor told me once when I was having issues with some people I was leading. He said that sometimes you need to get on their level to make them understand & get your point across. Find their "currency", and use that to get their attention

    OP, I think you have the right idea, just need to tweek it a little. I was taught you have only a few seconds 3-5 IMMEDIETLY after a negative action to correct that action before the horse won't associate the punishment with the behavior. From your description of the horse, he still thinks he's the overall boss, and just graces you with his cooperation when he feels like it.

    If a horse I was riding went to attack another horse, I've been known to make a fool of myself going absolutely bats**t crazy on them for those 3 seconds. No different than he would do in the pasture to a lower horse that was doing something he didn't like. When my time is up, it's all best buds, you're the greatest horse ever, relaxed, pleasant, blah, blah. THE SECOND he acts aggressive, I'm right there to be more aggressive. Once again, just for those few seconds like what would happen in the herd.

    Watch them out in their pasture once. The alpha will decide to discipline a lower horse for whatever reason, very very rarely do they go more than a few seconds. And a lot of times, can be seen grazing next to each other in the next moment.

    Get to this horses level, find his currency and use it :)
    FaydesMom and Critter sitter like this.
         
        07-19-2013, 02:28 PM
      #46
    Super Moderator
    There's a heck of a lot of condescending attitude here. Can't y'all make your points without that?

    I think ther ARE horse who get worse if punished with hitting, even if done in the correct timing. It makes them fight back instead of give ground like 99.9% of horses will.

    The thing to do with a horse like described by the OP would be to get his mind onto something else BEFORE it goes off to wanting to bite another horse. So, you'd have to be watching him, looking for signs that he's starting to think about something other than his handler, something like biting, and do something that immediately moves his thoughts off of that. So that you interrupt him when he gets to thinking thous dominance thoughts. Once interrupted, you have 1 or2 seconds to get him thinking on something else. But the trick is to interrupt his thought before it takes form in action. Not punish him but shake things up so he loses that focus, and in fact , going there mentally becomes uncomfortable due to you constantly interrupting that thought.

    This means you have to be very aware of where his thought is and ready to act before he can carry out that thought.
         
        07-19-2013, 04:06 PM
      #47
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PunksTank    
    I'm not talking about what the horse "Wants" or doesn't "Want" I'm saying, what we perceive as something the horse doesn't want (getting hit) may not actually be something he doesn't want, or something we think the horse wants (being left alone) may actually not be something he wants. So we could be encouraging a behavior to continue by using something we assume he doesn't want as punishment, when in fact he does want it and thinks "this is how I get what I want".
    I have a pony at my rescue who nips people who walk by, everyone throws hissy fits and squak and throw things at him and hit him, he thinks it's hilarious!! so while they think they're punishing him, he's actually really enjoying it. Obviously he enjoys it - because he keeps doing it more and more. But when everyone was told to stay out of his reach and completely ignore him, he only got attention of any sort when he was good - his behavior quickly changed.

    I'm not saying "just give him everything he wants" I'm saying, make sure when you think you're punishing him or when you think you're rewarding him, make sure the horse also perceives it as punishment or reward.
    Maybe the pony enjoyed it but maybe he didn't.
    It could be he felt trapped & the mean behavior was his way of protecting himself- like a dog behind a fence that kids tease or pick on. When people were told to stay away & leave him alone the bad behavior stopped. Could it be the pony stopped being bad because in his mind the people stopped being bad when they approached him?

    Did the treats themselves work or the lack of pestering or more likely the combination of both?

    For example: I got 2 sheep that were afraid of people. When I approached them they went into a panic before they ever knew my intent. Catching them & loving on them wouldn't do any good because they were already upset about my approaching. I did much like you did with the pony- I dropped treats without approaching them. They soon became calmer & after a while would approach me.
    So, was the pony attacking before being attacked (in his mind) as a protective measure & ceased when his perceived attacks stopped or did he really enjoy having things thrown at him? With ponies it's hard to tell but I would think it was the former.
    Either way I'm sure the pony & the people are much happier.
    PunksTank likes this.
         
        07-19-2013, 04:33 PM
      #48
    Yearling
    Based on what the OP said, the horse has an ego & thinks it's OK to flaunt it. From what I get from it, the horse doesn't want to accept that someone is higher in the pecking order than he is (they said he is always challenging/fighting to keep authority). The horse needs to understand that while that may be fine and dandy when we aren't around, that crap STOPS when he's with us.

    In this case diverting isn't going to do a thing. By the time you realize what happened, the deed will already be done. It happens in a split second. He could be riding nice and quietly along the rail, swing his head over to take a bite out of someone next to him, and put it right back like nothing ever happened. How would you divert that? Start doing circles? But the deeds already been done.

    If you give him treats for walking past another horse without having an attitude, he's not going to associate the 2. WAY to big of a picture to grasp.

    But like someone said earlier, your best & SAFEST bet would be to send to a trainer that's dealt with stuff like this before.
    demonwolfmoon and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        07-19-2013, 05:28 PM
      #49
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by natisha    
    Maybe the pony enjoyed it but maybe he didn't.
    It could be he felt trapped & the mean behavior was his way of protecting himself- like a dog behind a fence that kids tease or pick on. When people were told to stay away & leave him alone the bad behavior stopped. Could it be the pony stopped being bad because in his mind the people stopped being bad when they approached him?

    Did the treats themselves work or the lack of pestering or more likely the combination of both?

    For example: I got 2 sheep that were afraid of people. When I approached them they went into a panic before they ever knew my intent. Catching them & loving on them wouldn't do any good because they were already upset about my approaching. I did much like you did with the pony- I dropped treats without approaching them. They soon became calmer & after a while would approach me.
    So, was the pony attacking before being attacked (in his mind) as a protective measure & ceased when his perceived attacks stopped or did he really enjoy having things thrown at him? With ponies it's hard to tell but I would think it was the former.
    Either way I'm sure the pony & the people are much happier.

    You're absolutely right - this is why we used the double approach, making it pleasant when people walked by and setting him up for success by not getting in his space. You're beyond right, he wasn't being aggressive out of just plain arrogance, he was very afraid - this was defensive. I don't know if he liked the game of having people hit him, I doubt it, but either way what we perceived as "punishment" (causing a decrease in behavior) actually "reinforced" (causing increase in behavior) his behavior. You're probably right he didn't enjoy being hit or attacked, but it did reinforce in his mind his need to defend himself even stronger - thus reinforcing the action.
    And yup, either way, everyone's much happier now!!
         
        07-19-2013, 05:39 PM
      #50
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by busysmurf    
    If you give him treats for walking past another horse without having an attitude, he's not going to associate the 2. WAY to big of a picture to grasp.

    But like someone said earlier, your best & SAFEST bet would be to send to a trainer that's dealt with stuff like this before.
    I think you underestimate a horse's ability to figure out how to get food. My Belgian for example new how to get food. He has a top and bottom door, the top door has a latch that swings open and shut, he lifted it and swung it open. Then he reached over and opened the latch on his bottom door. He wriggled his nose on his stall guard until the clip broke. Then he walked through the barn and opened the grain bin. Luckily I saw it all on the cameras and was able to run downstairs fast enough to get him back in his stall. Then I tied his stall latches. Horses know how to get food. They understand what they need to do to make it happen.
    But you are right, getting him to not act aggressively at first would be difficult. Because it was very rare when my pony didn't act aggressively to anyone passing by, we couldn't just feed when he was behaving, it didn't happen often enough. This is why I put a target in his stall and reinforce the target heavily, then when I walked by I told him to target, and dropped the food and kept going. I repeated this until I no longer had to ask. Then had new people ask him and drop food, until anyone could walk by and he would be on his target. Then we added horses and so on. From here now we've switched to "intermittent reinforcement" where he only gets treats sometimes, gradually reducing them until he only gets one very rarely. But because the skill is so reinforced it becomes worth the gamble for him to be on that target, just in case we have food.

    I'm not saying anyone has to use my method - just mentioned what I did in a similar situation that worked. :)
         

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