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Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone?

This is a discussion on Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        07-12-2011, 07:43 PM
      #101
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Whisper22    
    Ok, now I'm confused. I wasn't under the impression that NH meant I couldn't discipline my horse. My horses get whacked all the time by their trainers and the farrier if need be. All but the farrier practice NH. I've watched mostly Clinton Anderson and even he says to give your horse a good whack if their not listening.
    I may be wrong on that. I don't watch NH trainers regularly, but from what I've seen, they shame anyone who gets physical. I got Pat Parelli's book when the NH became popular and I read it until I saw his statement "Horses don't respond to physical punishment". That's when I gave the book to somebody. Because I saw horses physically punish each other and it seemed to work for them. Maybe they aren't all like that.

    You're right on Clinton Anderson, I've seen him a little more and he does wack them. BUT!!...he then has to explain himself by saying, "DID YOU SEE THAT, HE JUST RAN INTO MY WHIP!" because it's frowned upon.
         
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        07-12-2011, 07:48 PM
      #102
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by smrobs    
    ..."Cowboy" and "horseman" are not titles lightly given to anyone who happens to train horses or happens to ride horses and work cattle. Those titles are earned by a person's deeds, abilities, and ideals. There are lots of trainers who are not horseman and there are lots of horsemen who are not trainers. There are lots of cowboys who are not ranch hands and there are lots of ranch hands who are not cowboys.
    Well, if a guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch isn't a cowboy, what do we call him? "Guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch but who doesn't work well with horses" is kind of a long title. It just doesn't work to say, "My horse was badly hurt by a [Guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch but who doesn't work well with horses]!"

    Is someone who spurs the heck out of horses, and throws them to shoe them, a good cowboy, or an example for other cowboys to follow? Nope. But is he a cowboy?

    "a man who herds and tends cattle on a ranch, especially in the western U.S., and who traditionally goes about most of his work on horseback."

    Yep, he's a cowboy - by the dictionary meaning. You cannot compare cowboys and NH trainers, as the original poster did, and then later qualify it by saying the only real cowboys are cowboys who are good with horses. In that case, the only real NH trainers are the ones good with horses, so both cowboys and NH trainers are good with horses.

    If someone wants to hold up cowboys as guys who really do well with horses, then he needs to qualify it by saying cowboys who really work well with horses are guys who work really well with horses - and that becomes pretty stupid.

    There are lots of cowboys who live their lives with horses, know them and understand them, and know how to handle a horse without anyone helping them. If I had grown up around horses all my life, and spent a lifetime with them, I wouldn't need help either.

    John Lyons doesn't make me want to vomit. His principles have worked well for me in working with horses. The cowboy who left Trooper bloody makes me want to vomit...and since he worked cattle on a working ranch, "cowboy" is the word most people would use to describe him. The alternative just takes too long to type.
         
        07-12-2011, 08:22 PM
      #103
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AmazinCaucasian    
    I may be wrong on that. I don't watch NH trainers regularly, but from what I've seen, they shame anyone who gets physical. I got Pat Parelli's book when the NH became popular and I read it until I saw his statement "Horses don't respond to physical punishment"...
    I don't watch any NH trainers, since I don't have a TV, but the John Lyons trained trainer got after me for not being tough enough with my mare. When I first started working her in the round pen, she said I was "inviting" Mia to turn.

    "Does Mia ever invite another horse to do anything? Have you EVER seen her say please to another horse? She DEMANDS obedience, and you need to do so as well."

    That doesn't mean beating her with a club, but the usual alternative is to make her move her feet - to work or to do something she doesn't like until she 'wants' to do it my way. Then release.

    Or as the riding instructor I'm taking western riding lessons from puts it, "You cannot make a horse do anything, but you can remove his alternatives until he does what you want." But that movement to what you want doesn't have to be the complete thing. When training a horse to get in a trailer, you don't keep the pressure on without release until the horse is all the way in the trailer. You keep it up until the horse moves a foot in the right direction, then break. Then you start again, until there is more progress. Eventually you get one foot momentarily in the trailer...and eventually (since there is no where else to go), you get the horse in the trailer.

    The first time I saw a horse loaded into a trailer - on a ranch - they got him close, tied him so there was no where else to go, then beat on him until he went in. That 'worked', but it pretty well guaranteed the next time would be ugly too.

    The principles of NH aren't tough. Learning to read the horse well enough to adjust your pressure and time your release to get the quickest communication with the horse? THAT takes a LOT longer!

    There are idiots like that Nevzorov fellow who I guess claims to be a NH, but that no more means all NH are idiots than a cowboy who abuses a horse means all cowboys do so. There are cowboys whose skill with a horse takes my breath away...and not. And there are NH trainers who I've seen get good results with my horses, and there are others out there making asses of themselves.

    But I'll put a plug in for those of us who have bought horses and then go, "What now?" You can laugh or denigrate us, but if you've never been around horses much, you don't know what you don't know.

    And when you start to find out, you can give up, or get help. If I succeed in training Mia to reduce the level of expertise needed to safely ride her while raising my level of riding until we meet, I will have made a huge jump in my 'horsemanship'. And since that stubborn mare is the horse that got me interested in riding, and I don't want to ship her to Mexico, I'm paying for professional help for both of us - and reading, including reading on this forum. We've been at it for nearly 3 years of up and downs, and I've got some long term pain in my hip to remind me of the risks. 50 isn't the optimum age to take up seriously riding horses. Mia and I have both made progress, so perhaps we'll get there. Or maybe I'll be hurt bad - that is a risk anyone takes around horses, although inexperience and an aging body raises it some for me.

    As for the ex-ranch horse that was loaned to another ranch...with some time, and help from that John Lyons trained trainer, my 13 year old daughter rides him around, often with feet out of the stirrups and rein around the horn, singing songs to him. He is once again a very good-natured horse who tries to do what you want him to do. I'm inclined to chalk that up as a plus sign in the NH corner...
         
        07-12-2011, 10:03 PM
      #104
    Yearling
    I think like with many other things it comes with the good and the bad. I find when watching pat I have to listen more to what he's saying because it's not working on screen. "see how relaxed she is" ears pinned tail swishing yeh real relaxed.

    I do use a modified version of his techniques on my own horses and our rescues and it works incredibly well. I work princess at liberty because it's fun. Most of the games are not essential to training but do help. Saying that it's very handy when at feed time I point to her chest and she goes backwards!

    I find with Ella that again having the ability to snap out hindquarter yields is incredibly useful. That being said it's becoming more and more commercialized. I buy all my halters from parellis old supplier they no longer supply the brand so don't come with the parelli stamp they're like a third of the price.

    My instructor was looking at renewing her parelli certification because there is plenty of need for a parelli instructor in our area but decided against it because certified parelli instructor are not allowed to teach anyone not in the parelli program. Seriously wth?

    I think many techniques are becomming more Normal rather then fancy pants nh
         
        07-12-2011, 10:06 PM
      #105
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    1 - In the past, almost everyone had grown up around horses and knew how to read their body language. When you lived daily with streets full of horses, their behavior was just part of your world.

    For many of us, horses are foreign. I didn't grow up on a ranch surrounded by horses, so I appreciate trainers who help me understand how horses think and react.

    After 3 years of living with horses, I'm getting a lot better - but when I started, the videos then on StateLineTack were invaluable to me. And the one set of DVDs from John Lyon helped me too.

    2 - Carrot sticks & cowboys. I don't care if folks sell stuff, but I've never bought anything but a DVD from any NH trainer. I have hired a woman trained in the John Lyons system, and she got excellent results with our small Arabian mare (never ridden before) and our gelding (fearful after some idiot COWBOY spurred the hell out of him, leaving 2-3 inch holes in his flesh on each side). Same cowboy used an ill fitting saddle and wore a hole in his flesh on his withers, too!

    In fact, our farrier - who regularly works with ranch horses - is certain they roped and threw our gelding to do his feet. With time and training, he now holds his feet in sequence for the farrier.

    It has taken a lot of time to get his trust in humans back. When we first got him, when he saw a person with a cowboy hat & lariat, he blew thru the metal panels of a round pen in panic. Sorry, but there are plenty of cowboys who RUIN horses - just as there are others who are outstanding with them.

    Teddy Roosevelt wrote about training horses, either quick or good. I prefer good. And training a horse to accept walking into a trailer beats the snot out of using a come-along every time.
    Good post. I agree
         
        07-12-2011, 10:18 PM
      #106
    Green Broke
    There's nothing new about NH, its been around forever (Xenophon 340 BC). Yeah, the language and props have changed, but the foundation is basically the same. I got admit though the marketing stuff now is genius.
    I think to appreciate the NH DVDs, books, etc... and use them as intended you really got to know horses. I grew up around horses, and understood herd dynamics before I even knew what it was. For me reading the NH stuff reminds me of things I already know but have forgotten.
    To someone just coming into the horse world, I don't think these things are that helpful. It's kind of like me watching Dr. Oz and thinking I'm ready to operate. Still, you got start somewhere.
    This is my gripe with NH big names. The people who study their stuff want to understand horses through "feel", but in my experience most die-hard NH followers don't spend a lot of time with their horses.

    BSMS-I've seen horses that were cowboy-ed. I get what you are saying, but I think that is more representative of the "Get er done" mentality people associate with "cowboys". For that I blame the evil "black box".
    Good cowboys know horses and know cows. Wannabes pretend like they do and think its the same thing. Plus, I'm pretty sure most folks would consider Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, and Buck Brannaman cowboys.
         
        07-12-2011, 10:25 PM
      #107
    Green Broke
    BSMS -I don't think you every really stop learning about horses. That is what makes them so fun.
         
        07-12-2011, 10:56 PM
      #108
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    Well, if a guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch isn't a cowboy, what do we call him? "Guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch but who doesn't work well with horses" is kind of a long title. It just doesn't work to say, "My horse was badly hurt by a [Guy who gets paid to get on a horse and cut cattle on a ranch but who doesn't work well with horses]!"

    No, he would be called a ranch hand, as I stated in my earlier post.

    Is someone who spurs the heck out of horses, and throws them to shoe them, a good cowboy, or an example for other cowboys to follow? Nope. But is he a cowboy?

    Not in my area. He would be frowned upon as being a brute and an idiot and real cowboys would avoid him.

    If someone wants to hold up cowboys as guys who really do well with horses, then he needs to qualify it by saying cowboys who really work well with horses are guys who work really well with horses - and that becomes pretty stupid.

    Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here ?

    There are lots of cowboys who live their lives with horses, know them and understand them, and know how to handle a horse without anyone helping them. If I had grown up around horses all my life, and spent a lifetime with them, I wouldn't need help either.

    Yes, but you are not claiming to be a cowboy either, are you? There is nothing wrong with needing help. Shoot, I did grow up around horses and I still need help sometimes. It really is offensive to true cowboys to group them in with such a derogatory term. True cowboys get stuck with a bad rap because of all the wannabe yahoos out there who run amok in knee boots, chinks, rock grinders, and taco hats playing like they know how to live the life.

    Real cowboys know that a horse that is afraid of you is only worth the price of his meat so they train them in a way that the horse has no reason to be afraid. I find this entire thing ridiculous because real cowboys do not "cowboy" their horses. That term is an unfortunate side effect of those wannabes and all those ridiculous western movies that show them bucking out their horses to get them broke simply because that was more dramatic than trotting around in a pen.

    John Lyons doesn't make me want to vomit. His principles have worked well for me in working with horses. The cowboy who left Trooper bloody makes me want to vomit...and since he worked cattle on a working ranch, "cowboy" is the word most people would use to describe him. The alternative just takes too long to type.
    It's unfortunate that your experience with a crappy ranch hand has colored your opinion of an entire group of people. That person is truly a cancer to the cowboy name and people like him are why that derogatory stereotype continues.
         
        07-12-2011, 11:43 PM
      #109
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by flytobecat    
    There's nothing new about NH, its been around forever (Xenophon 340 BC). Yeah, the language and props have changed, but the foundation is basically the same. I got admit though the marketing stuff now is genius.
    I think to appreciate the NH DVDs, books, etc... and use them as intended you really got to know horses. I grew up around horses, and understood herd dynamics before I even knew what it was. For me reading the NH stuff reminds me of things I already know but have forgotten.
    To someone just coming into the horse world, I don't think these things are that helpful. It's kind of like me watching Dr. Oz and thinking I'm ready to operate. Still, you got start somewhere.
    This is my gripe with NH big names. The people who study their stuff want to understand horses through "feel", but in my experience most die-hard NH followers don't spend a lot of time with their horses.

    BSMS-I've seen horses that were cowboy-ed. I get what you are saying, but I think that is more representative of the "Get er done" mentality people associate with "cowboys". For that I blame the evil "black box".
    Good cowboys know horses and know cows. Wannabes pretend like they do and think its the same thing. Plus, I'm pretty sure most folks would consider Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, and Buck Brannaman cowboys.
    Good post! I did watch a Ray Hunt Video once. I know, I know, I'm the one picking at NH people here but this fella was doing it before all the antics and goofiness started. I really thought he was the man. Nobody would watch it with me cause the tape was about 6 hours long, and boring if you were looking for action or something visually stimulating. But there were sure some solid techniques! And the man was humble; he didn't push his ideas on anyone. He just did a job and people watched.
         
        07-13-2011, 12:01 AM
      #110
    Yearling
    I have respect for the parelli stuff and all, I have seen the horses, like his wife's amazing Remer, however, it seems like a lot of time teaching them games, and these don't work for all horses, like they sell it for.

    Some guy tried to do some Parelli stuff with Rem and my gelding hated it, and started to get aggressive. We stopped playing the games and straight up taught my horse his job, and wah-la, my paint now loves to be ridden. Not all horse want to play around with you, some want you to just tell them clearly what is excepted and what to do, and not waste time. (not saying being aggresiv or anything, you can by gently sterner)
         

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