Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone? - Page 14 - The Horse Forum
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post #131 of 297 Old 07-14-2011, 08:09 AM
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Few of us oldies, who have spent decades working with horses would disagree with that BFF has just posted. Experience good and bad is the only way to learn about such a complex creature as a horse. Acquiring that experience takes years and lots of patience and it would seem that impatience is more prevalent in the modern way of living than patience.

It is sad that in an era when there are so many tools to aid learning that folks don't make full use of them. I have about 125 horsey books on my library shelf. However when recently thinking of how to publish a book of my own, I realised that it would be better to make a DVD or perhaps create a web site which contains, text to be read, links to explain the technical jargon, coloured still photos and coloured videos complete with a sound commentary. I suspect even then that few youngster would take the time to view the work.

PS If only I could not include my horse in such media - she is an object lesson for any budding rider.
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post #132 of 297 Old 07-14-2011, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thesilverspear View Post
I read it as an example of him getting a fairly untrained horse to stand for something unpleasant by approaching it with the right attitude, as opposed to using more coercive methods, I.e. Tying it in the heat for eight hours.
Exactly Silver, and funnily enough often times the horses will meet you with that attitude.

To understand anyone we have to ask questions. Lots and lots of questions. Horses are no different. To understand them we have to learn to ask questions. Few people are willing to consider that option, yet alone listen to the answers. Too many methods are based on human assumptions, ignorance, impatience and fear.
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post #133 of 297 Old 07-14-2011, 11:31 AM
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Anyone of you are welcome to come out and treat Spyder's wounds. Even my vet needed to twitch her after her sleepy shot to wash them. She stood for everything else but my safety comes 1st then hers. She is calm and healing now & will allow the topical meds on her rear legs below her hock. I was only pointing out that sometime you have to do it differently then NH methods.
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post #134 of 297 Old 07-14-2011, 11:36 AM
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Also I will add, she is fearful of people she doesnt know, has had little to no handling before I got her, will flip her butt to rear kick in fear and I can now treat her untied.
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post #135 of 297 Old 07-20-2011, 04:33 PM
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I'm not sure how I feel about this...

I do agree that it's a money thing, but if you want to buy a really great quality rope halter from jonathan field, or some Parelli Macate reins (I have those, HIGHLY recommend them), then that's your choice. I've bought some things, like I said the reins etc, and they're GREAT quality.

I'm going to buy a 12 foot rope from JF, and probably a horseman's stick as well. I know his saddles are also AMAZING..

The thing with this is, yes, its a money thing, BUT on the other hand, they're making great products that really are very useful... I have no experience with this "carrot stick" I've actually never even seen one I don't think...

Anyways, without going on and on, I don't really agree with anything else you've said.
I have girls at my stable that I just want to smack upside the head! They yell and scream and freak out at their horses for no reason other than the fact that the horse saw a scary piece of plastic or something... I'm like HELLOO!!! Haven't you ever heard of being C-A-L-M! It's a very simple thing to do... just breathe...

I don't know... I love natural horsemanship, and one day I want to be one of the greats, The Parellis, Jonathan Field, Clinton Anderson (although I don't like Clinton as much as the other two)... and I beleive NH is the only way to have a real GREAT horse. I'm not talking a good performance horse, or even a great perfomance horse... I'm talking a GREAT horse that loves people, that loves his job, that LOVES being treated the way he's treated. Not one that's great because it's forced or scared into being great.

Wow okay, I'm done now :)
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post #136 of 297 Old 07-20-2011, 04:37 PM
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Oh and I just had another point pop into my head- the Parelli methods (much like any other NH methods) and meant to be used PROPERLY... sure you can take tidbits out here and there, but you need to make sure you're executing them the right way, because "using" these methods without really knowing what you're doing can and probably will ruin a horse. So don't blame the product or the methods, because they work, obviously, look at the Parellis, look at Jonathan Field, and look at Clinton Anderson... They've all got INCREDIBLE horses. Because they know what they're doing.

Just thought I'd point that out.
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post #137 of 297 Old 07-20-2011, 05:35 PM
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To me it doesn't matter what human created title we give to a style of training I don't like to approach things with a preconcieved notion of what it will be. The main problem tends to be that people jump on a band wagon with out knowing all about it! I myself am open to looking into any method and use various and follow various trainers methods such as Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling (Who is the absolute top imho),Jonathan Field, most of the Parelli 'program' lol with the exception of a few aspects and Mike Kevil who knocked me off my feet with the amazing bond he managed to form with the horse he was assigned at a colt starting challenge while being super calm and gentle the is no such thing as negative reinforcement with this guy! I have tried to get into CA, Doug Mills etc..however found some VERY appauling aspects to their overall approach and they use negative reinforcement almost exlusively. People like Stacy Westfall and John Lyons I would like to learn more from I met Josh Lyons who was very kind and willing to help and Stacy's bond with Roxy is of course something that I would love to have but I havent had the time to dive into much of their approaches yet. Traditional horseman can critizise natural horsemanship till the cows come home as it in a generalization wouldn't be perfect of course just as 'classical dressage' would be FAR from perfect if one were to generalize so I don't know why anyone would choose to impose a blanket statment that is just a generalization onto something that they do not know all about. I for ex would say I do not know all about classical dressage so while there are methods (Rollkur) and people using methods (ANKY) that I abhore I would never make right off classical dressage as a whole. Which is exaclty what alot of non-nh ppl do to us unfortunately. But if they choose to be narrow minded that is their choice it just means that they are choosing to be deficient in knowlege that would likely strenghten their bond with their horse and probably their horse's quality of life! There are of course flaws within the nh genre such as rollkur (CA) and promoting shock collars (again CA) and imho the rope yanking or "bumping" that alot of nh trainers use yes even the trainers I follow such as JF and Parelli which I why I omit what I see as flaws from my particular training approach. So there you have it! No training method or genre or trainer is perfect and we can all learn something from ANY trainer/method (sometimes positive things and sometimes what to avoid lol). However speaking of perfection Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling comes the closest I have ever found and if you haven't already checked him out I urge you to do so :)
That's my two cents as someone who has been riding since I was six and has researched almost every training method under the sun lol and who with my previous mare rode her bridless and bareback and had the strongest bond I could imagine. This is a mare who before me was a nightmare on trails, would rear and managed to get the bridle off the middle of a show lol
Remember...critical thinking is great but generalizing is ignorant!
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post #138 of 297 Old 07-20-2011, 06:09 PM
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Ride the sky,

I am sure you have a lot of good points to make, but with all of them on one contiguous block (without paragraph breaks) it becomes a bit of a chore to find them.
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post #139 of 297 Old 07-20-2011, 06:25 PM
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Ok here I fixed it :)

To me it doesn't matter what human created title we give to a style of training I don't like to approach things with a preconcieved notion of what it will be. The main problem tends to be that people jump on a band wagon with out knowing all about it!

I myself am open to looking into any method and use various and follow various trainers methods. Such as Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling (Who is the absolute top imho),Jonathan Field, most of the Parelli 'program' lol with the exception of a few aspects. As well as Mike Kevil who knocked me off my feet with the amazing bond he managed to form with the horse he was assigned at a colt starting challenge. He was super calm and gentle and there is no such thing as negative reinforcement with this guy!

I have tried to get into CA, Doug Mills etc..however found some VERY appauling aspects to their overall approach and they use negative reinforcement almost exlusively. People like Stacy Westfall and John Lyons I would like to learn more from I met Josh Lyons who was very kind and willing to help and Stacy's bond with Roxy is of course something that I would love to have. However I havent had the time to dive into much of their approaches yet.

Traditional horseman can critizise natural horsemanship till the cows come home. In a generalization nh wouldn't be perfect of course just as 'classical dressage' would be FAR from perfect if one were to generalize. I don't know why anyone would choose to impose a blanket statment that is just a generalization onto something that they do not know all about.
I for ex do not know all about classical dressage. So while there are methods (Rollkur) and people using methods (ANKY) that I abhore I would never wright off classical dressage as a whole.
This is exaclty what alot of non-nh ppl do to us unfortunately. But if they choose to be narrow minded that is their choice it just means that they are choosing to be deficient in knowlege that would likely strenghten their bond with their horse and probably their horse's quality of life!

There are of course flaws within the nh genre such as rollkur (CA) and promoting shock collars (again CA) and imho the rope yanking or "bumping" that alot of nh trainers use yes even the trainers I follow such as JF and Parelli which I why I omit what I see as flaws from my particular training approach.

So there you have it! No training method or genre or trainer is perfect and we can all learn something from ANY trainer/method (sometimes positive things and sometimes what to avoid lol). However speaking of perfection Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling comes the closest I have ever found and if you haven't already checked him out I urge you to do so :)

That's my two cents as someone who has been riding since I was six and has researched almost every training method under the sun lol and who with my previous mare rode her bridless and bareback and had the strongest bond I could imagine. This is a mare who before me was a nightmare on trails, would rear and managed to get the bridle off the middle of a show lol

Remember...critical thinking is great but generalizing is ignorant!
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post #140 of 297 Old 07-20-2011, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms View Post
Not all cowboys are idiots, and not all NH trainers are. But you can find idiots and jerks among both...
I completly agree.

Any day riding is a good day.
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