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Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone?

This is a discussion on Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        07-12-2011, 10:57 AM
      #21
    Banned
    I would not.

    The people watching the PP DVDs will quickly "learn" that they are the worlds best horse trainer ever and they know far more than any person who does not follow the system presented on by the all knowing man with the big mustache.

    People who do not drink the Kool-aid are far more likely to take advice and look for help even if it is not with a trainer.
         
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        07-12-2011, 11:10 AM
      #22
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alwaysbehind    
    People who do not drink the Kool-aid are far more likely to take advice and look for help even if it is not with a trainer.
    LOL, I cannot argue with this.
         
        07-12-2011, 11:12 AM
      #23
    Doe
    Weanling
    Frankly I don't see the difference. It fascinates me that people separate NH, both those that do it and those that don't.

    At the end of the day, whether it be some NH named brand or more traditional training methods, they are the same.

    95% of training going on around the world with horses is trying to establish control of components - head, neck, shoulders, ribcage and hind and doing it using negative reinforcement techniques. (ie do it or else)

    Whether you use a carrot stick, no stick, rope, wear a cowboy hat or a hardhat makes no difference.

    If people got passed that on both sides then we could actually focus on what makes a difference, and on progression of skill, instead of the same junk recycled over and over.

    As for dumbing down, sorry but I blame the US. Guys I have list of American friends so no offence intended (they largely agree tbh) and I would love to live there, but as a culture everything keeps being dumbed down. Here in the Uk we are following like sheep as usual. I blame the media, but nothing lasts more than 30 seconds, takes any attention, focus or commitment, and everything is disposable.

    The biggest single change we could make to every horse? A celebrity horseman who could make anatomy interesting and sexy. If I meet one more vet or farrier who doesn't know what a Frog spine is or has no concept of muscle fascia and their importance, or still believes magnesium is a calmer - I'll scream!
    Ray MacDonald likes this.
         
        07-12-2011, 11:17 AM
      #24
    Yearling
    I moved from a place where NH methods and philosophy were commonplace -- almost everyone utilized at least some elements of them to work with their horses -- to one where they are virtually non-existent.

    Guess where the horses were, overall, better behaved on the ground, nicer to ride, and people were less likely to resort to things like martingales and draw reins to solve problems?
         
        07-12-2011, 11:32 AM
      #25
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Doe    
    The biggest single change we could make to every horse? A celebrity horseman who could make anatomy interesting and sexy. If I meet one more vet or farrier who doesn't know what a Frog spine is or has no concept of muscle fascia and their importance, or still believes magnesium is a calmer - I'll scream!
    This I can TOTALLY get behind. I was at a barn that swore by the Clinton Anderson method. But they misconstrued a lot of what his teachings entailed. They would lunge on these tiny circles at a canter for ever because they felt all horses needed to be worked on the ground first before riding, according to Clinton Anderson. But CA clearly states that not all horses need the same level of ground work as others. And it varies horse to horse, day to day. And I do not think he meant to canter them around in one direction on a 10 meter circle for 20 minutes.

    This same trainer would use ridiculous tie downs. These crazy lead rope rigged tie downs from the horse's poll to the bit to the horn of the saddle to the girth, it was NUTS. These young horses had their necks contorted into place without have the muscles worked there. They were just put there. This is not how CA works (I am pretty sure).

    Yet, the people following the CA training method didn't believe in providing horses forage during the day. Really?!?! I tried to explain this to them and their response was that they owned Quarter Horses. They didn't need pasture or hay during the day.

    I just thought to myself, You're joking right? Maybe you should put down the CA articles and pick up a book on Equine Digestion.
         
        07-12-2011, 11:33 AM
      #26
    Doe
    Weanling
    Silver

    I had a similar experience. I think that's because such systems help the human more than the horse (indirectly helping the horse therefore). They do this by providing set cues and instructions to carry them out. This creates more consistency from the human. Consistency until you become so refined that you can literally create 'whisper sentences and read the response' rather than just shouting 1 syllable words is very important to the horse.

    Most people without such a system react based on their mood at the time, and are not consistent. I see people shouting back, then get back, then shift, then move!, etc etc, all asking for the same thing. The horse can't understand the crap coming out of their mouths and has to try to read the frantic body language and intent. If the human is stressed, so will be the horse.
         
        07-12-2011, 11:44 AM
      #27
    Doe
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wancata    
    This I can TOTALLY get behind. I was at a barn that swore by the Clinton Anderson method. But they misconstrued a lot of what his teachings entailed. They would lunge on these tiny circles at a canter for ever because they felt all horses needed to be worked on the ground first before riding, according to Clinton Anderson. But CA clearly states that not all horses need the same level of ground work as others. And it varies horse to horse, day to day. And I do not think he meant to canter them around in one direction on a 10 meter circle for 20 minutes.

    This same trainer would use ridiculous tie downs. These crazy lead rope rigged tie downs from the horse's poll to the bit to the horn of the saddle to the girth, it was NUTS. These young horses had their necks contorted into place without have the muscles worked there. They were just put there. This is not how CA works (I am pretty sure).

    Yet, the people following the CA training method didn't believe in providing horses forage during the day. Really?!?! I tried to explain this to them and their response was that they owned Quarter Horses. They didn't need pasture or hay during the day.

    I just thought to myself, You're joking right? Maybe you should put down the CA articles and pick up a book on Equine Digestion.
    Lets have a whip round and send them a case of Omeprazole.......they're going to need it
         
        07-12-2011, 11:47 AM
      #28
    Yearling
    Aye, I think NH principles work well -- when they work, which like anything else, isn't all the time -- because they train the people how to communicate the horse in a fairly logical, systematic way. People like that.
         
        07-12-2011, 11:49 AM
      #29
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thesilverspear    
    Aye, I think NH principles work well -- when they work, which like anything else, isn't all the time -- because they train the people how to communicate the horse in a fairly logical, systematic way. People like that.
    Yes, true!

    The problem with so many of the Kool-aid crowd is that they are taught from their DVDs that these DVDs and what they teach is all they need for any horse. That means most in the drinking crowd are not willing to look outside the box (of DVDs) for other ideas when Dobbin is not thriving on the run in circles technique.
         
        07-12-2011, 11:55 AM
      #30
    Yearling
    Yep. But my point is that for the sort of horse owner you're describing, if it wasn't NH DVDs, it would be something else. "I'm cranking his face in with my chambone draw reins combo and he's still trying to kill me. Maybe I need a standing martingale as well."
    Ray MacDonald and Val1991 like this.
         

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