Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone? - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
 159Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #21 of 297 Old 07-12-2011, 09:57 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In a land far far away, or so I wish.
Posts: 12,825
• Horses: 0
I would not.

The people watching the PP DVDs will quickly "learn" that they are the worlds best horse trainer ever and they know far more than any person who does not follow the system presented on by the all knowing man with the big mustache.

People who do not drink the Kool-aid are far more likely to take advice and look for help even if it is not with a trainer.
Alwaysbehind is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 297 Old 07-12-2011, 10:10 AM
Foal
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 86
• Horses: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alwaysbehind View Post
People who do not drink the Kool-aid are far more likely to take advice and look for help even if it is not with a trainer.
LOL, I cannot argue with this.
Wancata is offline  
post #23 of 297 Old 07-12-2011, 10:12 AM
Doe
Weanling
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Uk
Posts: 394
• Horses: 0
Frankly I don't see the difference. It fascinates me that people separate NH, both those that do it and those that don't.

At the end of the day, whether it be some NH named brand or more traditional training methods, they are the same.

95% of training going on around the world with horses is trying to establish control of components - head, neck, shoulders, ribcage and hind and doing it using negative reinforcement techniques. (ie do it or else)

Whether you use a carrot stick, no stick, rope, wear a cowboy hat or a hardhat makes no difference.

If people got passed that on both sides then we could actually focus on what makes a difference, and on progression of skill, instead of the same junk recycled over and over.

As for dumbing down, sorry but I blame the US. Guys i have list of American friends so no offence intended (they largely agree tbh) and I would love to live there, but as a culture everything keeps being dumbed down. Here in the Uk we are following like sheep as usual. I blame the media, but nothing lasts more than 30 seconds, takes any attention, focus or commitment, and everything is disposable.

The biggest single change we could make to every horse? A celebrity horseman who could make anatomy interesting and sexy. If I meet one more vet or farrier who doesn't know what a Frog spine is or has no concept of muscle fascia and their importance, or still believes magnesium is a calmer - I'll scream!
Ray MacDonald likes this.
Doe is offline  
post #24 of 297 Old 07-12-2011, 10:17 AM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,444
• Horses: 1
I moved from a place where NH methods and philosophy were commonplace -- almost everyone utilized at least some elements of them to work with their horses -- to one where they are virtually non-existent.

Guess where the horses were, overall, better behaved on the ground, nicer to ride, and people were less likely to resort to things like martingales and draw reins to solve problems?

Last edited by thesilverspear; 07-12-2011 at 10:20 AM.
thesilverspear is offline  
post #25 of 297 Old 07-12-2011, 10:32 AM
Foal
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Michigan
Posts: 86
• Horses: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe View Post
The biggest single change we could make to every horse? A celebrity horseman who could make anatomy interesting and sexy. If I meet one more vet or farrier who doesn't know what a Frog spine is or has no concept of muscle fascia and their importance, or still believes magnesium is a calmer - I'll scream!
This I can TOTALLY get behind. I was at a barn that swore by the Clinton Anderson method. But they misconstrued a lot of what his teachings entailed. They would lunge on these tiny circles at a canter for ever because they felt all horses needed to be worked on the ground first before riding, according to Clinton Anderson. But CA clearly states that not all horses need the same level of ground work as others. And it varies horse to horse, day to day. And I do not think he meant to canter them around in one direction on a 10 meter circle for 20 minutes.

This same trainer would use ridiculous tie downs. These crazy lead rope rigged tie downs from the horse's poll to the bit to the horn of the saddle to the girth, it was NUTS. These young horses had their necks contorted into place without have the muscles worked there. They were just put there. This is not how CA works (I am pretty sure).

Yet, the people following the CA training method didn't believe in providing horses forage during the day. Really?!?! I tried to explain this to them and their response was that they owned Quarter Horses. They didn't need pasture or hay during the day.

I just thought to myself, You're joking right? Maybe you should put down the CA articles and pick up a book on Equine Digestion.
Wancata is offline  
post #26 of 297 Old 07-12-2011, 10:33 AM
Doe
Weanling
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Uk
Posts: 394
• Horses: 0
Silver

I had a similar experience. I think thats because such systems help the human more than the horse (indirectly helping the horse therefore). They do this by providing set cues and instructions to carry them out. This creates more consistency from the human. Consistency until you become so refined that you can literally create 'whisper sentences and read the response' rather than just shouting 1 syllable words is very important to the horse.

Most people without such a system react based on their mood at the time, and are not consistent. I see people shouting back, then get back, then shift, then move!, etc etc, all asking for the same thing. The horse can't understand the crap coming out of their mouths and has to try to read the frantic body language and intent. If the human is stressed, so will be the horse.
Doe is offline  
post #27 of 297 Old 07-12-2011, 10:44 AM
Doe
Weanling
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Uk
Posts: 394
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wancata View Post
This I can TOTALLY get behind. I was at a barn that swore by the Clinton Anderson method. But they misconstrued a lot of what his teachings entailed. They would lunge on these tiny circles at a canter for ever because they felt all horses needed to be worked on the ground first before riding, according to Clinton Anderson. But CA clearly states that not all horses need the same level of ground work as others. And it varies horse to horse, day to day. And I do not think he meant to canter them around in one direction on a 10 meter circle for 20 minutes.

This same trainer would use ridiculous tie downs. These crazy lead rope rigged tie downs from the horse's poll to the bit to the horn of the saddle to the girth, it was NUTS. These young horses had their necks contorted into place without have the muscles worked there. They were just put there. This is not how CA works (I am pretty sure).

Yet, the people following the CA training method didn't believe in providing horses forage during the day. Really?!?! I tried to explain this to them and their response was that they owned Quarter Horses. They didn't need pasture or hay during the day.

I just thought to myself, You're joking right? Maybe you should put down the CA articles and pick up a book on Equine Digestion.
Lets have a whip round and send them a case of Omeprazole.......they're going to need it
Doe is offline  
post #28 of 297 Old 07-12-2011, 10:47 AM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,444
• Horses: 1
Aye, I think NH principles work well -- when they work, which like anything else, isn't all the time -- because they train the people how to communicate the horse in a fairly logical, systematic way. People like that.
thesilverspear is offline  
post #29 of 297 Old 07-12-2011, 10:49 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: In a land far far away, or so I wish.
Posts: 12,825
• Horses: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesilverspear View Post
Aye, I think NH principles work well -- when they work, which like anything else, isn't all the time -- because they train the people how to communicate the horse in a fairly logical, systematic way. People like that.
Yes, true!

The problem with so many of the Kool-aid crowd is that they are taught from their DVDs that these DVDs and what they teach is all they need for any horse. That means most in the drinking crowd are not willing to look outside the box (of DVDs) for other ideas when Dobbin is not thriving on the run in circles technique.
Alwaysbehind is offline  
post #30 of 297 Old 07-12-2011, 10:55 AM
Yearling
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,444
• Horses: 1
Yep. But my point is that for the sort of horse owner you're describing, if it wasn't NH DVDs, it would be something else. "I'm cranking his face in with my chambone draw reins combo and he's still trying to kill me. Maybe I need a standing martingale as well."
Ray MacDonald and Val1991 like this.
thesilverspear is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.



User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Common Sense Beau Baby Barn Maintenance 7 01-10-2011 09:04 PM
Common Sense smrobs General Off Topic Discussion 22 12-08-2010 06:31 PM
Natural Horsemen? nobody2121 Natural Horsemanship 75 09-07-2010 07:03 PM
Obituary of the late Mr. Common Sense PaintedHooves General Off Topic Discussion 4 08-29-2009 09:58 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome