Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone? - Page 6

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Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone?

This is a discussion on Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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    07-12-2011, 02:00 PM
I take it, Monte Roberts is a NH guru as well? If he is, something is amiss. A gal here who was a tad squirrelly to begin with spent $25,000 to compete some sort of training course with his "program", sorry I don't know what the terminology is. She had her horses boarded at a friends' house and I was called over to visit and watch her load up her horses in her new expensive beautiful trailer (it was a beauty! Aluminum slantload, top of the line). So my friend & I (gal disputed her board bill so she was moving to her new "ranch") watched from her kitchen window to see how these 2 horses were going to load in the trailer. My friend said she watched her practice loading about a dozen times & only one of them finally got in. Anyways to make a long story short, her hubby drove the empty trailer home, & she led one horse home & then the other. I offered to help loading her horses, offer was declined, but I sure didn't offer to walk an ruly unbroke 5 yr. Old filly home 3 miles. This gal opened up a training facility at a wealthy immigrant's property and began advertising & training horses. I don't think she had many clients, most people want to actually ride their horse and have them load in the trailer every darn time. Anyways her business went out of business quickly. I don't know if this attests to the Monte Roberts' expensive training course or it was just her, but it was ineffective, period.
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    07-12-2011, 02:03 PM
Personally, I like the idea of natural horsemanship and I appreciate aspects of it. I don’t agree whole heartedly with the entire method and I don’t consider the trainers to be ‘gods’. I enjoy watching what they do and listening to what they have to say, and forming my own conclusions. I have a very good understanding of horses, their behavior and how to train them, but I enjoy seeing what others do and incorporating their methods into my own training style. For example, I would much rather spend a bunch of time building a solid relationship with a horse and moving along slowly than hopping into the saddle and hanging on for dear life because the horse didn’t expect me up there or wasn’t ready for me to be up there. I think there are many valuable lessons to be learned from Natural Horsemanship, but also, from the more traditional means of training. It’s up to us to decide what works best for our situation and the horse we’re working with, and customize a training plan to their specific needs. There is not a ‘one size fits all’ training method; in order to be successful, we have to borrow concepts from a bunch of trainers and customize them.
    07-12-2011, 02:05 PM
I have been riding horse for about 13 years now and the only thing that I can be sure of is that Horse people are Crazy... One book makes you an expert and then open your business. My husband apprenticed with Ken McNabb in Wyoming for an very intensive three weeks and when he came home he still worked with his own horses before he took on clients. He is one of the best horsemen that I know. He can gain a horses trust so quickly. It doesn't matter how much money you pay. It is how much time you put into your talent that makes it successful or not.
    07-12-2011, 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by waresbear    
They are not scammers, there is no scam, but there is some slicky dicky marketing. Hey, we live in a capitalist nation, it's allowed, totally up to the consumer what they choose to spend their money on. Pat Parelli is an excellent horseman from what I gathered, and he capitalized on it, good on him.
I agree. Shrinks sell self-help books and charge ridiculous prices for their services too but no one complains about that.

I don't think it's fair to lump all new-age trainers together either. Some of them are much less commercial and more down-to-earth than others.
    07-12-2011, 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by rlcarnes    
Why is everyone blaming the "Cowboy's"? I know plenty of English, Gaited, Trail and Saddle Seat Riders and Trainers that have used horrible methods of training and used natural horsemanship that have ruined horses. Everyone is blaming Western riders for ruining horses and bad training methods. Bad training can be found in ALL DISCIPLINES. Sorry I am a Cowgirl at heart and it hurts that only the western riders are getting bombarded here.
Simply because the thread was aimed at the NH trainers. Of the generally 'known' brands they are all American and all dress like cowboys. The exception is CA who is an Aus but still dresses like a cowboy and now lives in the US.
    07-12-2011, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by rlcarnes    
Why is everyone blaming the "Cowboy's"? I know plenty of English, Gaited, Trail and Saddle Seat Riders and Trainers that have used horrible methods of training and used natural horsemanship that have ruined horses. Everyone is blaming Western riders for ruining horses and bad training methods. Bad training can be found in ALL DISCIPLINES. Sorry I am a Cowgirl at heart and it hurts that only the western riders are getting bombarded here.
I like ranchers. I've drifted from riding English to Western, and plan on selling my English saddles.

NH is not English or Western. It is using natural horse behavior to teach a horse. That includes discipline - I promise you, my mare Mia expects TOTAL obedience from underlings. As the NH trainer who I hired put it, "Have you ever seen Mia ask another horse to obey?" Not hardly...

But it also involves doing so in a way the horse can understand. If you use a come-along to get a horse in a trailer, you are not teaching him to load. You are just setting yourself up for future trouble. The guy who spurred my gelding did NOT create a good horse. Roping and throwing a horse for the farrier does NOT create a good horse.

Reading your horse, treating him as an individual, applying pressure that doesn't create fear and releasing it at the right time is NH, and I don't see how any of that is wrong. Those are principles that apply to western riding, dressage, reining, etc.

The only alternative to "natural horsemanship" is "artificial horsemanship"...
    07-12-2011, 02:17 PM
What about Karen and David O'Connor- They are Parelli peeps too... Definitely not western by any means
    07-12-2011, 02:19 PM
There are things I like about most NH trainers and things I don't. A lot of what I don't has to do with spending too much time on the ground and not enough in the saddle.

I have no problem with PP and his carrot stick, I have one and I use it. A horse 'runs into' a dressage whip a few times and becomes unimpressed with it or fearful. He runs into the heavier carrot stick a few times and say, "Hurt like HELL don't want to do that again.". As long as I'm firm fair and consistant, no problems.

Have sent horses out for starting to NH guys and gotten the horse home as a head flipper because not enough time was spent on bitting properly. So, I break out the trusty draw reins and surcingle and off we go to the round pen where I let the horse teach himself to find relief from banging against the bit. Usually only takes a couple sessions and they teach themselves that flipping the nose equals a sore mouth and dropping the nose gets relief from the bit and the nonsense stops. I RARELY use a chambon, running martingale or over check reins, but with a slow learner they have their place.

I ask nicely from my horses before I insist and then I demand. My 'energy level' goes up with each step of the correction. I don't lose my temper and I don't do things 'to get even' with the horse.

Most of what I have learned was not from NH trainers but, lo and behold, it was the exact same thing as the NH trainers are teaching. I do actually like the PP Games as teaching aids. By breaking things waaaaaaay down, I can play with my foals and have 90% of their ground work done before they are old enough to saddle and ride. Makes saddling that 3 or 4 year old a piece of cake. The babies love it because each game is designed for their kind of attention span and teaches them to focus, very short times at first but longer and longer as they get older and can achieve more.

So, like others, I learn from the good trainers out there NH or not, and try not to learn anything from the bad ones.
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    07-12-2011, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
I agree. Lets step off PP (who is usually brought up in ANY discussion as a main example) and talk about, say Stacy Westfall. Who is also a NH trainer. I've met her in person as well as been on her demonstrations and have to say I have a big respect for her. So is she also someone to "vomit" on and "ripping off" kool-aiders?
I'm not knocking Stacey (not my thread) but just for the record, She is in the exact same camp. There is nothing she does that is not the same basic model of NH as the others and she even sells DVDs on DIY how to start a young horse like the others. (which I've never considered ethical myself)
    07-12-2011, 02:30 PM
Perfectly put Dreamcatcher!

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