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Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone?

34K views 296 replies 79 participants last post by  savvygirl559 
#1 ·
I have a problem with Natural Horsemanship. Every time I click on a youtube video that looks cool, but turns out to be a NH follower, I want to vomit. Somebody's crouched down with their "ears laid back" trying to imitate Pat Parelli or trying to join up like Monte Roberts. Looks so silly.
The first time I saw a video of NH I was impressed. These guys were revolutionizing horsemanship! Then came the politically correct terms....A clinitian says he doesn't "cowboy" a horse, he gentles or starts them. OK, these guys were starting to get annoying since the horsemen I respected most were cowboys that could do anything they needed to do with a horse and a cow. These clinitians are dragging the word through the dirt. As if the word hasn't already been *******ized enough.
Then came the gimmicks. trick horses(John Lyon's Zip), tools, etc. I couldn't understand why we have to tap a horse with a carrot stick for 90 minutes to get his *** over. Just ask once and spank him over! Then I realized oooooooh..........we're selling carrot sticks.
NH has become so commercialized it's sickening. Buy a halter, buy a dvd, buy a certification. And it's just become a contest of who can train the gentlest. I don't care who's gentler, let's see results!
People, we need to realize these clinitians are competing for YOUR money. And they're like politicians, they'll do or say whatever is popular with public opinion. If they screw up they make a public apology(search:Pat Parelli Catwalk) just like a politician
 
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#47 ·
I also wonder where the common sense has gone but am hesitant to point the finger at any one person or group.

I think that it is in human nature to want to include, and to want to exclude. One is necessary by virtue of the other. We include those that have similar beliefs to us and exclude those that don't, thereby reaffirming our own beliefs by associating with other people who share those beliefs.

It isn't just in the NH world. Look at religion, look at politics. It's basic human nature. 'We' are right and 'They' are wrong. As if right and wrong are so easily definable.

Same thing here.

Stupid people: They're everywhere.
 
#85 ·
I also wonder where the common sense has gone but am hesitant to point the finger at any one person or group.

I think that it is in human nature to want to include, and to want to exclude. One is necessary by virtue of the other. We include those that have similar beliefs to us and exclude those that don't, thereby reaffirming our own beliefs by associating with other people who share those beliefs.

It isn't just in the NH world. Look at religion, look at politics. It's basic human nature. 'We' are right and 'They' are wrong. As if right and wrong are so easily definable.
Yes, sarahver, my thoughts exactly. As newbie to riding (2 years) and ownership (6 months) you can imagine how confusing all of the different training techniques are to someone like me. My barn manager, excellent trainer, judging by the behavior of his horses, introduced himself to me as someone who "uses NH training before anybody ever called it that." When he first mentioned NH I immediately thought, uh oh... beware, but I do appreciate the way he works. Of course, I myself am not training horses...

An analogy: as a teacher we have the same situation in learning theories and teaching techniques. I've been around for a while and know that there are certain basic principles that are present in all methods, no matter what you call it. Some methods go to an extreme in one way or another, these are the ones that in the long run don't work. For example, do you think I am going to spend my money on a workshop titled "Teach like a rock star!"? Heck no, I know how to work effectively with kids without being a rock star.

I have transfered what I know from dog training, and what I have learned from working with my horse to the classroom, though. Random thought: do you think I could get rich marketing a program called "Teach like a natural horse trainer!"? :lol:
 
#51 ·
I take it, Monte Roberts is a NH guru as well? If he is, something is amiss. A gal here who was a tad squirrelly to begin with spent $25,000 to compete some sort of training course with his "program", sorry I don't know what the terminology is. She had her horses boarded at a friends' house and I was called over to visit and watch her load up her horses in her new expensive beautiful trailer (it was a beauty! aluminum slantload, top of the line). So my friend & I (gal disputed her board bill so she was moving to her new "ranch") watched from her kitchen window to see how these 2 horses were going to load in the trailer. My friend said she watched her practice loading about a dozen times & only one of them finally got in. Anyways to make a long story short, her hubby drove the empty trailer home, & she led one horse home & then the other. I offered to help loading her horses, offer was declined, but I sure didn't offer to walk an ruly unbroke 5 yr. old filly home 3 miles. This gal opened up a training facility at a wealthy immigrant's property and began advertising & training horses. I don't think she had many clients, most people want to actually ride their horse and have them load in the trailer every darn time. Anyways her business went out of business quickly. I don't know if this attests to the Monte Roberts' expensive training course or it was just her, but it was ineffective, period.
 
#202 ·
Maybe she's just not that smart? You say she's "squirrelly" to begin with, so...? I haven't taken a Monty Roberts class, and obviously the guy runs a business, i.e., he's making money, but I wouldn't blame him or his methods for this woman's ineptitude. That's like saying, "My son flunked 9th grade algebra, therefore Mr. Wilson is ineffective as a teacher." I mean, maybe my son didn't do the work. Maybe my son just doesn't understand math and never asked for extra help. Maybe my son thinks he knows it all already and didn't pay attention in class. LOL. Now Mr. Wilson might be a lousy teacher with crappy methods, but we'd need more proof than just my son's one case, especially if my son has a history of not learning stuff in school. I understand there has been some sort of backlash against Monty Roberts, but I like him. :)

As for NH in general, I appreciate many of the concepts but the contraptions and whatnot don't seem necessary. I'm not going to buy a lariat, for example. I really think some people just have a knack with horses and some don't. People who have the knack can be good trainers. People who don't can really suck, no matter what method they're using. A lot of what Monty Roberts does involves this knack for "feel" for the horse. I'm not sure much can be taught to a loopy individual who is just on the wrong page overall.
 
#52 ·
Personally, I like the idea of natural horsemanship and I appreciate aspects of it. I don’t agree whole heartedly with the entire method and I don’t consider the trainers to be ‘gods’. I enjoy watching what they do and listening to what they have to say, and forming my own conclusions. I have a very good understanding of horses, their behavior and how to train them, but I enjoy seeing what others do and incorporating their methods into my own training style. For example, I would much rather spend a bunch of time building a solid relationship with a horse and moving along slowly than hopping into the saddle and hanging on for dear life because the horse didn’t expect me up there or wasn’t ready for me to be up there. I think there are many valuable lessons to be learned from Natural Horsemanship, but also, from the more traditional means of training. It’s up to us to decide what works best for our situation and the horse we’re working with, and customize a training plan to their specific needs. There is not a ‘one size fits all’ training method; in order to be successful, we have to borrow concepts from a bunch of trainers and customize them.
 
#53 ·
I have been riding horse for about 13 years now and the only thing that I can be sure of is that Horse people are Crazy... One book makes you an expert and then open your business. My husband apprenticed with Ken McNabb in Wyoming for an very intensive three weeks and when he came home he still worked with his own horses before he took on clients. He is one of the best horsemen that I know. He can gain a horses trust so quickly. It doesn't matter how much money you pay. It is how much time you put into your talent that makes it successful or not.
 
#58 ·
There are things I like about most NH trainers and things I don't. A lot of what I don't has to do with spending too much time on the ground and not enough in the saddle.

I have no problem with PP and his carrot stick, I have one and I use it. A horse 'runs into' a dressage whip a few times and becomes unimpressed with it or fearful. He runs into the heavier carrot stick a few times and say, "Hurt like HELL don't want to do that again.". As long as I'm firm fair and consistant, no problems.

Have sent horses out for starting to NH guys and gotten the horse home as a head flipper because not enough time was spent on bitting properly. So, I break out the trusty draw reins and surcingle and off we go to the round pen where I let the horse teach himself to find relief from banging against the bit. Usually only takes a couple sessions and they teach themselves that flipping the nose equals a sore mouth and dropping the nose gets relief from the bit and the nonsense stops. I RARELY use a chambon, running martingale or over check reins, but with a slow learner they have their place.

I ask nicely from my horses before I insist and then I demand. My 'energy level' goes up with each step of the correction. I don't lose my temper and I don't do things 'to get even' with the horse.

Most of what I have learned was not from NH trainers but, lo and behold, it was the exact same thing as the NH trainers are teaching. I do actually like the PP Games as teaching aids. By breaking things waaaaaaay down, I can play with my foals and have 90% of their ground work done before they are old enough to saddle and ride. Makes saddling that 3 or 4 year old a piece of cake. The babies love it because each game is designed for their kind of attention span and teaches them to focus, very short times at first but longer and longer as they get older and can achieve more.

So, like others, I learn from the good trainers out there NH or not, and try not to learn anything from the bad ones.
 
#61 ·
The reactions to this thread are interesting because they highlight the very issues I was trying to address in my 'basis of all NH' thread recently.

The fact is that all the talk is of 'personalities' and what concerns me is how people fail to understand the basis of the training to sufficiently judge when something is the same as something else. People see PP, CA, Stacy, Monty etc as all doing different things or having separate skills when in actual fact there is no real difference between them. Only differences in presentation.

An example is when I posted the thread about KFH. People took one look at a clip and were unable to differentiate between that and Monty, or Parelli, or general round penning, or lunging etc. Yet is is very different.

Now let's say I were to bring in Nevzorov into the conversation or even say Spilker......my goodness there'd be forum meltdown.

If people just took more time to understand how and why something works they it does, then they can truly learn from it (good and bad) and adapt it as needed by the horse. It's the difference between having a photographic memory and learning a book, or actually understanding the equations within it.

The interesting thing is, if people actually did.........this forum would have no more threads.....................
 
#63 ·
Now let's say I were to bring in Nevzorov into the conversation....
Yeah, I don't like him. Mostly because he's preaching about one thing while have videos of totally opposite on net. Plus you can't give your opinion in his "chat" - you'll be kicked out right on spot.
 
#65 ·
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with "Starting a young horse" DVD or book. As long as its targeted on those with experience
I don't disagree, but that's my issue, these videos are most definitely targeted at those without sufficient experience. If you did have the experience, you would already be aware of the very basic information in these DVDs, and instead they would be focussing on the more intricate and delicate details.
 
#66 ·
I think that the main problem here is that for example- Ms. Suzy has only been around horses for a little while. she sees a horse she falls head over heels for but it is a green broke monster with no manners and bolts, rears etc. Not having common sense to look for a professional to help her with this task she goes to the local tack store and buys everything she can on colt starting- no problem right? Well now she sees how easy the trainers make it look and she begins to train now pony and gets her back broke because she didn't have common sense to ask for help. I think that this is what people are talking about when it is un-ethical to have DIY books. They are not always geared toward the experienced riders. And honestly many experienced trainers do not look to books they go to the source and get it straight from the horses mouth. Like I said before horse people are crazy and everyone knows everything about everything. If you haven't met someone like Ms. Suzy yet you will everyone knows some horse person like this.
 
#68 ·
I think that the main problem here is that for example- Ms. Suzy has only been around horses for a little while. she sees a horse she falls head over heels for but it is a green broke monster with no manners and bolts, rears etc. Not having common sense to look for a professional to help her with this task she goes to the local tack store and buys everything she can on colt starting- no problem right? Well now she sees how easy the trainers make it look and she begins to train now pony and gets her back broke because she didn't have common sense to ask for help. I think that this is what people are talking about when it is un-ethical to have DIY books. They are not always geared toward the experienced riders. And honestly many experienced trainers do not look to books they go to the source and get it straight from the horses mouth. Like I said before horse people are crazy and everyone knows everything about everything. If you haven't met someone like Ms. Suzy yet you will everyone knows some horse person like this.
Amen, my sister, amen.
 
#71 ·
True that she probably would have done it herself with no help but it is still not the best situation for her or her horse. I used to be a parelli follower (Im not slamming parelli he is just who I used) with my 22 year old QH gelding just because of respect issues. I saw them on TV and though oh wow! I can do that, well I couldn't and now i have a very clingy horse with worse manners than I started because I read some book and watched a movie about it. he is getting better though thanks to my new training from a professional though- My hubby. Either way Ms. Suzy should have said "you know what I have no clue how to do this" and then she could have gotten the help she needed.
 
#73 ·
Kinda reminds of those home renovations dvds & tv programs. Average home owner thinks they can renovate a house because they watched the show & bought Mike Holmes book and then end up with house that needs to condemned! However, after seeing the results with the gal who spent 25 G's on getting some sort of certification from Monte Roberts, that really turned me off of that. Who would give her an endorsement certificate when she couldn't even load a horse after practicing upteen dozen times? I understand some peops are not cut out to be trainers but then don't give her a certificate & say she's good to go. Tell her she needs to spend another 25 G's before she have the certification LOL!
 
#75 ·
Hello,

This (the bolded) is from a post I made a while back and is my way of dealing with the most likely to be valid assumption that I will ruin a horse because of my lack of experience and/or NH practices:


I asked to work him online and she wanted to lunge him herself first to show that the video was not a good example of what she does. She did a lot of slapping the ground behind him with the whip while gripping the line about 5-6 feet from his nose, giving him no place to go. With no body language cues that I could see. He did move as best he could, when she got a little quieter with the whip he did walk a bit, or stop. I did not feel she had much gait or direction control , and did not get him out on a circle any bigger than 6 feet from herself. When she stopped I did tell her it was much better than the video, it was -- he had not challenged her. I guess she must have made him canter until he willingly walked again during the 30 seconds or so that it took for me to walk to my car and get my halter and line.

I advised her that I work with natural horsemanship methods, and do not even know how to properly "lunge". The cues I use are different, for example I put pressure on the hindquarters/flank area to ask for them to turn toward me and stop, rather than to go faster. And I told her I have been told so many times that I will ruin a horse, that I mostly work with horses that have already been ruined so that I will not cause any great loss if I'm doing something wrong.

He moved his hindquarters off finger pressure fairly well, much more resistance with the front feet, but after releasing pressure when I got a cross over step in front about 3 times I could see he would improve. I sent him out on a circle with driving pressure to the neck/shoulder area, he went out well increased gait to trot, so I stopped him and started again until he walked at full length of the line calmly about twice around, then turned him the other way and repeat, then turned him the other way and trotted, then the other way. He was moving well with some slack in the line as I like, not pulling out or trying to run off. I even passed the line behind me once or twice. When asking him to disengage and turn and stop at first he would try to go faster, I moved some towards him increasing pressure on his hip without pulling on his face and the first time actually had to touch him on the flank with the tip of the stick before he moved hip away and stopped. Release of pressure, stand a minute, lip licking. Much improvement over the course of the 15 minutes the entire session took. He was paying attention and willing to do what I asked.

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/help-he-out-control-67152/page11/#ixzz1RurZFIGp

Sincerely,

Ms. Suzy
 
#76 ·
As someone who is completely new to owning horses, I am extremely grateful that horsemanship has been broken down in a way that makes it simple for me to follow. I can understand how people who have grown up around horses and have been taught a different way of handling them might be annoyed at people coming in and completely changing what have been the preferred methods. Because now YOU don't know it all. I am open too any and all advice no matter what method it comes from, as long as it is safe for me to do having no experience. Not to mention NH trainers are extremely easy to find in my area. I don't know anything about the cowboy way, but my trainer prefers to work with both me and my horse, to make sure I can continue the lessons established for my horse. It is just ridiculous to label NH followers as people who wont listen to any other way. Both of my trainers are older and have been around horses heir entire lives, yet they both prefer NH.

This isn't any different than labeling certain disciplines as this or that. And we all know how well tolerated that is.
 
#77 ·
You are lucky to have such open and willing trainers. many of the NH people are in the "its my way or the high way" mind set. you hit the nail on the head- you are only willing to do what you feel is safe for you and your horse. there are a lot of people out there that are willing to put everything that they have worked hare for at risk because of some new fandangled contraption that has come out- not just NH here but in all forms of riding.
 
#79 ·
Labeling the cowboys is ridiculous too. My husband is a cowboy and does not believe in NH but he has never beat a horse nor abused it. Cowboys aren't the only ones who don't think that they need the NH "BS". As I said before I know many English, Trail Riders, Gaited people, and Saddle Seat Riders that could use some schooling on the proper way to treat a horse. So, let's not use any labels and call it what it is. It is bad Trainers and bad riders not just "Cowboys"
 
#80 ·
I think the original poster had a bit of a beef with the fact that some of the big name NH trainers make money on their dvds and training appliances. I kind of feel similarly, in the sense that the marketing is rather irritatingly slick. But, they have to make a living and as many of you must agree, it's very hard to make a living in horses. It's not a crime to sell your skill, knowledge or talent. It's an open market and buyers can pass.

It is good that there are multiple voices out there reminding those with open minds that it isn't the color of or the name of your stick, it's the way it is wielded. Thus, those that feel satisfaction out of being well equiped with every piece provided in the training catelogue can be happy , while those that don't need them can be happy.
 
#81 ·
But, they have to make a living and as many of you must agree, it's very hard to make a living in horses. It's not a crime to sell your skill, knowledge or talent. It's an open market and buyers can pass.

It is good that there are multiple voices out there reminding those with open minds that it isn't the color of or the name of your stick, it's the way it is wielded. Thus, those that feel satisfaction out of being well equiped with every piece provided in the training catelogue can be happy , while those that don't need them can be happy.[/QUOTE]

Well put no one is forcing anyone to buy anything and if people want to or not it is up to them!
 
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