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Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone?

34K views 296 replies 79 participants last post by  savvygirl559 
#1 ·
I have a problem with Natural Horsemanship. Every time I click on a youtube video that looks cool, but turns out to be a NH follower, I want to vomit. Somebody's crouched down with their "ears laid back" trying to imitate Pat Parelli or trying to join up like Monte Roberts. Looks so silly.
The first time I saw a video of NH I was impressed. These guys were revolutionizing horsemanship! Then came the politically correct terms....A clinitian says he doesn't "cowboy" a horse, he gentles or starts them. OK, these guys were starting to get annoying since the horsemen I respected most were cowboys that could do anything they needed to do with a horse and a cow. These clinitians are dragging the word through the dirt. As if the word hasn't already been *******ized enough.
Then came the gimmicks. trick horses(John Lyon's Zip), tools, etc. I couldn't understand why we have to tap a horse with a carrot stick for 90 minutes to get his *** over. Just ask once and spank him over! Then I realized oooooooh..........we're selling carrot sticks.
NH has become so commercialized it's sickening. Buy a halter, buy a dvd, buy a certification. And it's just become a contest of who can train the gentlest. I don't care who's gentler, let's see results!
People, we need to realize these clinitians are competing for YOUR money. And they're like politicians, they'll do or say whatever is popular with public opinion. If they screw up they make a public apology(search:Pat Parelli Catwalk) just like a politician
 
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#182 ·
The more of your posts I read the more I agree with your theory. However, experience tells me that I have to be the leader when I ride. Some horses can handle a 60/40 relationship and others need a 90/10 for a while. It also makes a difference if you use a horse hard enough (doing a job) to really get them tired. I find that a tired horse makes more of an effort to "get with" me and feel what I'm asking.
 
#183 ·
Thank you Kevin. I agree with you absolutely. I ALWAYS lead anyhorse I am with. How I lead may be different from horse to horse, but I always lead 100% of the time. Sometimes the leadership can be more passive and other times its more active, but its always clear and unquestionable.

In terms of the how; we may differ slightly but only because of our reasons for horses. From what I understand (and correct me if im wrong) you work horses? (and I dont mean just as a trainer but cattle etc?)

If thats the case then of course that will lead to different choices than myself. I work with horses but I dont have to. They aren't a tool, I don't need them to get a job done. They are a passion and a life's study. Therefore I make choices based on a pure ideology and to see how far something can be developed, or how many ways it can be done, rather than having a simple necessity to get something done. (thats not any criticism by the way)

The internet is a funny beast. There are many people on this forum i'm sure I would get on well with in real life, and im sure we would have a lot more in common than one may think from purely reading posts.
 
#184 ·
The Internet is a funny beast

Quote
The internet is a funny beast. There are many people on this forum i'm sure I would get on well with in real life, and I'm sure we would have a lot more in common than one may think from purely reading posts.
UnQuote​

Doe, you can write that again.
I'll share a bottle of wine with you any time - red or white?

Welcome to the Forum Just try to stay out of the mire.

Barry G
 
#185 ·
Doe I think you should go help Barry pack and you both should come to the US and find your inner cowboy. We could have a hell of a good time!
 
#186 ·
I do use my horses as tools and at times I have to do things just to get the work done. Sometimes it's not the way I would like to do it if I had the choice but on the flip side I would bet I use a horse harder than almost anyone on this forum and that really helps to figure a horse out. I liken it to the militaries basic training. They push a recruit to the very edge of what he can take and then push some more to show him that his limmits are mostly mental. I have noticed that horses are much the same way. I can take a big, soft, fat gelding that has been raised on flat ground it's whole life and in two hours that horse doesn't think he can go anymore. I'll pull off my saddle and take a nap then saddle up again and go some more. The turn around in some of the spoiled horses I have ridden is amazing because I ride the pushiness right out of them. You can't do that in a round pen or arena. It takes a job and plenty of wide open spaces.
 
#188 ·
My horse and I are a team. We are not equal – I am the lead mare. We work together to accomplish a goal, but when it comes down to it… my horse is the lowest on the totem pole. I am number one. The halter and lead rope is number two, and my horse will respect those just as much as he respects me. I supply the food, I make him feel safe and I ensure he is taken care of. He is my partner, but he is not my equal. As far as I’m concerned, he can be the head honcho of his pen and his food and his ‘territory’ until I step into it and then it’s mine until I give it back. It may sound harsh, but that’s life in a herd. My horse is comfortable with the pecking order and he is confident in my role as lead mare. Whenever he is uncertain, he defers to me. When he is in a new place that’s a little bit scary, he will always stand just off my shoulder and wait for my direction. This is the relationship I strive to have with my horse. It is not abusive… it is working. We both understand our roles and we rise to them. There is not a doubt between the two of us where the other stands and in turn, that keeps us both safe, happy and constantly growing as a team.
 
#189 · (Edited)
To be utterly cynical about it, I would suggest that the behaviour of all organisms, including us, is dictated to a large extent by the Skinnerian paradigm of operant conditioning. That means a behaviour increases or decreases depending on the nature of the reinforcement. Behaviour increases in frequency when it is positively reinforced and it also increases when a negative reinforcer is removed. Behaviour decreases in frequency when the outcome is punishment. You can have either a positive punishment, which can be either the removal of something the organism wants, or the direct application of an unpleasant stimulus.

Pretty much all horse training systems I have encountered are fundamentally based on these principles, whether the systems are classified as natural horsemanship or not. How do you think pressure and release works? The release rewards the behaviour you want, which will then hopefully increase. That's why timing is so fundamentally important -- the horse needs have an idea of what he did that stopped you from applying pressure. Most good horsemen and women apply all types of operant conditioning, as needed in the situation at hand.

I could pick every NH training system apart and find these ideas underpinning all of it, same as any good non-NH trainer. But -- as as been said here before -- it's handy as an explanatory tool for people. Talking about pressure, release, timing, feel, etc. sounds far more friendly than explaining more or less the same thing in the technical academic terms I used above. :)

On top of that, I'd emphasise the importance of an understanding of equine behaviour, body language, and cognition. Such knowledge gives you the means to set up situations in which desirable behaviour can be rewarded and also the ability to communicate a reward or the application and release of pressure effectively. Improving understanding of this doesn't erode the operant conditoning at the heart of all training but it does give us tools for employing it more clearly and effectively.

While I think I have a good relationship with my horse, we trust each other, etc (I guess you never know for sure, but all the evidence I have supports that hypothesis), I've read Skinner and she hasn't, which puts me in a position of power in terms of my ability to get her to do things.
 
#190 · (Edited)
Doe, you can write that again.
I'll share a bottle of wine with you any time - red or white?
Barry I'm definitely a Red guy.......or beer.....or Guinness.....or whiskey......bourbon.....er and if there's none of that left....White!! :D

Doe I think you should go help Barry pack and you both should come to the US and find your inner cowboy. We could have a hell of a good time
Kevin don't tempt me, I could think of nothing better!

Cheers guys :)
 
#193 ·
Well, here is my two cents. I am new to horse ownership, having purchased my first horse at the end of February. Prior to that, I had worked in a barn for riding time throughout my high school years, and spent almost two years searching for a horse and saving money, reading, and learning all I could to be ready. I bought a CA and a PP book, and read them both. (You can skip to the next two paragraphs for the main point if you want).

Fast forward to the first time I ride Gambit (my horse). He did not want to turn right, and when I asked him to, he threw up his head and backed up or stopped. I didn't want to be "mean" so I just turned him 270* left as opposed to 90* right, and continued with the ride.

The next time I rode him he was (predictably) worse. I got sick of his attitude, grabbed his rein down by the bit, and forced him to turn right. He slowly stopped fighting me with this.

What I am trying to say here is that the NH books I read both emphasized "being nice" over getting the job done. It suckered me in because I was new and I wanted to be nice. But at the end of the day, you need to be the boss, not the horse and you need to show that to your horse in whatever way is effective for him.

Now, I am not saying that NH is bad, I recognize that it has helped some people and horses. What I disagree with is assuming it works for everyone and every horse, and saying that those who do not use it are poor horsemen.
 
#195 ·
What I am trying to say here is that the NH books I read both emphasized "being nice" over getting the job done. /QUOTE] I dont know which books you were reading, but the NH training I have used never said that:shock:, it was be as firm as needed to get the job done. Right thing easy, wrg thing hard with lots of extra work. That's how I roll. :lol:
 
#196 ·
the truth is, atleast were we live,it doesnt matter wether they say they are nh or a cowboy the two things that both have in common is that there are absolute morons who ruin the name of the "group" and others that are amazing...true "horse whisperers" .....i grew up around cowboys of all walks of life...and they all have diff. ways they beleive is correct..now that i am getting back into riding full throttle i have been taking advice from all sources, including this sight :), and sorting through what makes sense to me...the old way and new way have their good points...its up to us to use our common sense.....if anyone nh or cowboy told me to inflict unnecesary pain (and ive seen both parties afflict it) i would simply not take THEIR advice...we need to teach our animals our children our husbands :)jk...no matter what training title u put on it i dont beleive beating the creature and making it fearfull will ever work for anyone...may get some imediate results with some but no trust will ever be there...that's when u get bit, kicked, killed in your sleep :)jk ya get the point
 
#197 ·
I have always thought of Natural horsemanship to be communicating with a horse in thier launguage, you need to be the herd leader, and in charge, or they will be. I do not follow PP, CA, or any other method. I have watched some of the videos, I am guilty of watching RDF-tv now and then. A lot of it I laugh at. I use bits and pieces of anything that works for me, and some I have made up myself. Horses can not be cookie cutter trained, each horse has different methods that will work for it.
To start with I think many of todays problems stem from the fact that horses are now a luxury, and not a part of life like in the past.
You did not see a farmer say Oh, fluffy does not want to pull the plow today, his right brain is exploding, and he is depressed (or whatever else you mave have seen or read as an excuse to not ride, or work your horse) People have lost site that horses are animals, and they are prey animals.

I have spent more hours than I can count watching my herd interact. My lead mare, does not ask the other horses to do anything, and usually she does not have to tell them either. Herd members know thier place, they follow her without question. They know were to be, when to get out of the way. They respect her, and follow her leadership. She does not have to round them up to go to the water trough, or to the other end of the ranch.

This is what I try to be to my horses, the lead mare. I am fair, I can be your friend (as my mare is with many of her herd mates), but I AM the boss, and the final word. My broke horses are broke. I can leave them sit in the field for weeks, months, pull out, and ride without lunging, and have a good ride.
When I load them , they get in the trailer. My worst horse will get one foot in, take it out, then load all the way in. It never takes more than a min to load any of my horses. Most I throw the lead over thier back, and tell them to load, and they walk right in.

I'm not just lucky and have good horses, many of my horses have come with issues, but with leadership, and training most issues can be gotten through very quickly.
 
#199 · (Edited)
WOW-I can't believe I read this WHOLE thread!!
**excuse, burping now while digesting**
I guess I've had my horses long enough,
I've bought/digested enough books on horsemanship,
I've tried enough different disciplines,
I've owned enough different breeds.
so...
NOW I watch and analyze every bit of advice that I read,
that I watch,
that I observe,
from EVERY trainer that wants to show me.
The ONLY NH advice that I totally disagree with is, "Your horse shouldn't be bored."
Perfect practice always makes perfect. I know. I play 2 instruments, and my horses are trained as well as I know how to. Practice is
BORING!!!...but it's necessary.
Ya' know, we've domesticated all of the animals who are good at following us, like horses and dogs.
Go back to the OP. Let's just use our common sense more.
...hmmm... I wonder how long this thread will go...
 
#200 ·
Practice is boring, sure, but a necessity to helping a horse learn the drill. When I'm working with my horse, I try to mix things up. I know he's got the attention span of a hummingbird, but I still have to teach him stuff. What I find works best to teach while beating boredom is to go through a quick refresher course and then throw in something completely strange. For example:

Yesterday, I picked up his near front and off hind foot and held them for a few seconds and then asked him to back up a few steps. Then, I led him from the right side rather than the left. That confused the hell out of him, but after a bit of coaxing, he followed. I think it's important for a horse to lead from both sides, so that's what we worked on yesterday.
 
#201 ·
Just wanna add this for no reason whatsoever, but to say it, lol... Buck Brannaman is my hero! I cant wait to watch the documentary!!!

Honestly tho, I just skipped to the last page here, lol... I'll come back and put my two cents in after the baby is asleep tonight! LOL
 
#203 ·
If you want to watch a few eye openers watch David Lee Archer work with spoiled horses on youtube that come into a rescue. His vids aren't slick and sometimes a little noisy but he gets his point across, rather bluntly at times. His vids are called True to Your Horse Horsemanship. He's had a few that would prefer to kill a person and he knows how to work with them.
 
#204 ·
Finally a forum topic I agree on!
I am honestly really sick of the whole "natural horsemanship" idea - one in particular, Parelli.
Of course I applaud you if you use gentler and kinder methods of training your horses, but at the end of the day, all of his techniques wind up being negative reinforcement, which to us may seem different from every other technique out there, but isnt to the horse. The pressure is augmented until the point where the horse "submits" to it and does the "right" thing, where he is given a "release" from the negative. Again, negative reinforcement.
A few years back I was obssesed with Parelli and his "7 games" logic and his right/left brain extrovert/introvert charts, and his 350$ dvd and toy packages and his website (which may I add requires a membership of 20$ A MONTH to access?). Then I read a few articles and actually started to notice how my horse was getting a tad depressed by my waving a carrot stick over his head, so I stopped and we haven't been better since. I know some of his games are "fun" and work well with many horses, but the die hard advocats who try to convert you into spending massive amounts of money for a half-plagiarised chart on "who your horse REALLY is" get on my nerves.
One lady tried to convince me that spending 240$ a year to look at his website was actually "very cheap and worth it". To be honest I was disgusted by her statement as you could sponsor 2 charity horses a year on that amount of money!
In the end I know it's whatever works on you and your horse, but their whole aspect of everyone else having horrid cruel methods that "break the horse" and that their way is the "only right way" is so frustrating.
 
#205 ·
I have to say something, not sure if anybody has brought this up or but here it goes:

Natural Horsemanship is in my mind getting WAY over sold and marketed, I mean, the carrot stick/Handy Stick/etc is basically a dressage whip with a string tied to the end....
I have met Parelli horses that were pushy, stubborn, and basically did what they wanted while the rider sat on their backs and held on with no saddle, bridle, way to stop the horse, etc. I have also met some that were so well trained you could ride them off leg and body position and cues and bareback and bridle-less Same with every other NH techniques and training styles.

What works for one horse might not work for the other.

My Appaloosa can be stubborn and a pain in the butt and would laugh at you if you tried some of the natural horsemanship techniques(like the "pinning the ears"), she is the kind of horse that would most likely become pushy and hard to handle.

My Haflinger pony however naturally wants to please and looks to her person for attention and thrives on praise. She is the kind that would most likely end up being able to be ridden bareback and bridle-less with the right training
 
#206 ·
What works for one horse might not work for the other.

I think a truer statement would be "What works for one PERSON might not work for another". The vast majority of horses think the same way. They may react differently based on individual differences but if you learn how a horse thinks you can adapt what your doing to fit each horse. That is the failure of the dvds that these clinicians peddle. They show the very basic techniques and rarely if ever get into the philosophy behind them.
 
#207 ·
I don't like to bash trainers because so much of what one learns, especially from dvd's is how it is interpreted. There's an old adage "What I said is not what you heard". A person should try to keep an open mind and by doing so there is an opportunity to learn. When training horses it's importante that we make our mistakes and stash it away while we try something else, because what doesn't work with one horse may work with another. Over time the "bag of tricks" gets bigger, giving us more to draw on.
 
#208 ·
NH is termed differently from each person. And I think some people add elements into it that certainly (in my mind) is not NH. For me, its using the language horses use to communicate - ie pressure and release. Good horsemanship is to me always about trying to achieve 'less is more' from what you do. I don't use bits, never will now. I ride in a rope halter, I use a treeless saddle and work on what is best for my horse, not me. Great understanding of horses and their behaviour makes you better, not gadgets and harsh equipment that could cause pain and fear and force.
 
#209 ·
I tried to read all of this, really, I did. what I could see was this:


What works for some doesn't for other, some people shouldn't be training any type of animal fullstop. A sell out is a sell. And for me, Equitation Science works so thats what I use and will continue to use. I don't care if no one else on here agrees with what I say. I use what works for me and the type of horses I have the pleasure/ misfortune of riding.
 
#210 ·
To bring this back to page one, I'm totally for slandering the cowboy name. I've seen a good number of horses ruined by cowboys. Oh sure you will say, "Not all cowboys are like that!" And I will argue, not all people that do meth try to sell their kids on craigslist. Just because there is an exception to the rule doesn't make it right. That is the reputation they have, they can either grow out of it or just accept it. Really this applies to the younger cowboys, I think its because of a lack of experience and being able to control their horse. So, it's you won't do what I say, you get spurred! It's ridiculous, I've ridden some horses people thought were bad, and I had the time of my life.
 
#211 ·
I think there's a real good chance you have never met a cowboy. If all cowboys were like that then how do you explain the popularity of "ranch broke" horses. Who do you think trains these horses? If a real cowboy told you a horse was bad you WOULD NOT have the time of your life riding it. Younger riders usually don't handle thier horses as well as riders with more experience regardless of the discipline. If you go to a rodeo and assume that everyone there is a cowboy you are fooling yourself. Just because they have a rope and a hat doesn't mean they are a cowboy. All it means is they know were the tack store is.
 
#213 ·
Wow You have been to TWO whole ranches in ONE county of ONE state! That's a lot of experience! You're a fool if you think you know anything about ranching or cowboying. I've ridden arabs and TB's and drafts and gaited horses while actually DOING WORK and gotten along fine. I understand that you are a touchy feely "my horse is my baby" type and nothing I can say will change that but just because someone does things different than you do doesn't make them wrong.
 
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#214 ·
The same could be said for yourself, you aren't listening to another opinion because you have your way of doing things. I've ridden horses into combat, and didn't need spurs. And neither did the rest of my six man team. I guess that's more of that touchy, feely horsemanship the Northern Alliance does.

If I started to stab my girlfriend in the ribs with a spur because she wasn't doing what I wanted that would be assault. What makes the difference when its a horse? Because it can't speak?
 
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