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Horsemen: Where has our common sense gone?

34K views 296 replies 79 participants last post by  savvygirl559 
#1 ·
I have a problem with Natural Horsemanship. Every time I click on a youtube video that looks cool, but turns out to be a NH follower, I want to vomit. Somebody's crouched down with their "ears laid back" trying to imitate Pat Parelli or trying to join up like Monte Roberts. Looks so silly.
The first time I saw a video of NH I was impressed. These guys were revolutionizing horsemanship! Then came the politically correct terms....A clinitian says he doesn't "cowboy" a horse, he gentles or starts them. OK, these guys were starting to get annoying since the horsemen I respected most were cowboys that could do anything they needed to do with a horse and a cow. These clinitians are dragging the word through the dirt. As if the word hasn't already been *******ized enough.
Then came the gimmicks. trick horses(John Lyon's Zip), tools, etc. I couldn't understand why we have to tap a horse with a carrot stick for 90 minutes to get his *** over. Just ask once and spank him over! Then I realized oooooooh..........we're selling carrot sticks.
NH has become so commercialized it's sickening. Buy a halter, buy a dvd, buy a certification. And it's just become a contest of who can train the gentlest. I don't care who's gentler, let's see results!
People, we need to realize these clinitians are competing for YOUR money. And they're like politicians, they'll do or say whatever is popular with public opinion. If they screw up they make a public apology(search:Pat Parelli Catwalk) just like a politician
 
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#4 ·
1 - In the past, almost everyone had grown up around horses and knew how to read their body language. When you lived daily with streets full of horses, their behavior was just part of your world.

For many of us, horses are foreign. I didn't grow up on a ranch surrounded by horses, so I appreciate trainers who help me understand how horses think and react.

After 3 years of living with horses, I'm getting a lot better - but when I started, the videos then on StateLineTack were invaluable to me. And the one set of DVDs from John Lyon helped me too.

2 - Carrot sticks & cowboys. I don't care if folks sell stuff, but I've never bought anything but a DVD from any NH trainer. I have hired a woman trained in the John Lyons system, and she got excellent results with our small Arabian mare (never ridden before) and our gelding (fearful after some idiot COWBOY spurred the hell out of him, leaving 2-3 inch holes in his flesh on each side). Same cowboy used an ill fitting saddle and wore a hole in his flesh on his withers, too!

In fact, our farrier - who regularly works with ranch horses - is certain they roped and threw our gelding to do his feet. With time and training, he now holds his feet in sequence for the farrier.

It has taken a lot of time to get his trust in humans back. When we first got him, when he saw a person with a cowboy hat & lariat, he blew thru the metal panels of a round pen in panic. Sorry, but there are plenty of cowboys who RUIN horses - just as there are others who are outstanding with them.

Teddy Roosevelt wrote about training horses, either quick or good. I prefer good. And training a horse to accept walking into a trailer beats the snot out of using a come-along every time.
 
#8 ·
Oh boy I think our definitions of cowboys are different. See, when I say cowboy I'm not talking about a coca cola cowboy, coffee shop cowboy, urban cowboy, or even a rodeo cowboy. I'm referring to a man who gets up in the morning and throws a leg over a good horse,(not one he's riding for the neighbors) and makes his living horseback tending to cows. On a ranch or in a feedlot. Just because this guy had a hat on and carried a rope doesn't mean he's a cowboy. But thanks for dragging the word a little further in the dirt
 
#6 ·
You no doubt speak too soon. Did you make this post with that in mind? For late night entertainment? There will be others who will rise to the occasion.

As for me, I agree with bsm that there has been some great benefit gained overall with the blossoming of this philosophy. It isn't a new concept, but those NH practicioners who made it available to the average person have made a contribution to improving horse/human relations overall. Yes, there are some pretty ridiculous commercial aspects and the special wording and such is fodder for ridicule. I think that it's a developing trend, and it hasnt' reached it's natural apex, wherein it comes back to commonsense horsemanship with a basis in empathy for the other living creature we call a horse.
 
#12 ·
I never really paid much attention to the NH bandwagon, until I started reading threads on here. So I read everything I could find, very controversial. Seems to me, these methods are helping more people than they are harming, most of it is commonsense horse handling with their personal spins on it. They are not scammers, there is no scam, but there is some slicky dicky marketing. Hey, we live in a capitalist nation, it's allowed, totally up to the consumer what they choose to spend their money on. Pat Parelli is an excellent horseman from what I gathered, and he capitalized on it, good on him.
 
#54 ·
They are not scammers, there is no scam, but there is some slicky dicky marketing. Hey, we live in a capitalist nation, it's allowed, totally up to the consumer what they choose to spend their money on. Pat Parelli is an excellent horseman from what I gathered, and he capitalized on it, good on him.
I agree. Shrinks sell self-help books and charge ridiculous prices for their services too but no one complains about that.

I don't think it's fair to lump all new-age trainers together either. Some of them are much less commercial and more down-to-earth than others.
 
#14 ·
Without writing a novel, I would have to disagree with those who think NH is harmful to people and horses.

My basic idea is that it is the "concept" that we should train using methods that are kind, fair, and make sense that is important. I think that there is much too much of the "old school" type trainers telling clients to do something just because it has always been done that way. Expecting people to blindly follow techniques that have no common sense is a lot worse, and certainly more detrimental to the horse, than most natural horsemanship out there. From this you get people who have been in the horse world for 20 years and still don't know how to do anything without their "trainer" at their side. Yes, there are marketing scams in the NH world, but I think that they are far more prevalent in the actual world of horse "training" barns.

I do not agree with every NH trainer out there, but overall I find the concept to be much less offensive than much of what I see every day.
 
#18 ·
. Yes, there are marketing scams in the NH world, but I think that they are far more prevalent in the actual world of horse "training" barns.

I do not agree with every NH trainer out there, but overall I find the concept to be much less offensive than much of what I see every day.
These two sentences sum it up for me. I am most familiar with Saddlebred training barns where the horse owners are only allowed to ride during a lesson, where they are told what to do but not why. They show up, get on their already tacked up horse, ride then leave.
They do this for years on end, always 'trading up horses' when the current one burns out, though they are told they have advanced past the horse's ability.
I board a few ex-show horses & the owners had no idea how to do simple things on their own. Those that want to learn are greatly helped with some NH techniques, so are the horses. Really it's just common sense techniques but I'm OK with the NH label for discussion.
Anything that gets a person working with their own horse is fine with me, no matter what it's called.
 
#15 ·
I agree that the ideas are good, it is good that there is knowledge available for people who otherwise may not seek help with their horse.
I see where there is a fortune being made, and I am sure most people realize you dont need "specific tools" to use the methods. (At least I hope).
I still say you learn by doing, the more horses you work with, the better you become. Nothing can replace time spent with the horses themselves. Susan
 
#17 ·
The gimmick-y NH of trainers like Parelli and Clinton Anderson, ect, I think, is just a way to dumbie proof things for people. And you can't really argue with that.

Before the recession, the number of equine households was on the rise. I remember many years ago reading an article that there was actually a push to raise interest in Equine activities in American homes. Don't know about other areas of the world, but the intent was to raise it by 2%. I am sure that has been reached, if not by more. Granted, now-a-days, you might go on vacation and come home to a new horse on your pasture. Its a sad reality, but I digress....

These little gimmicks (DVDs, Carrot sticks, Handy sticks, giant red Parreli balls, ect) just give the newbies out there a path to follow, because lets face it, everyone wants to be a trainer. I had to chuckle a little bit when I really thought about it, NH gimmicks kind of remind me of Weight Watchers. Weight Watchers was designed for people who cant (or wont) count calories or watch their portion sizes. Its a dumbie proof calorie counting systems with little books and calculators and point systems. Instead of saying you can eat 1500 calories a day, you get 25 points. And people LOVE this stuff! People buy the books and calculators and brand named foods with the points already tallied for them. Its crazy!

However, I lost 55lbs on weight watchers so I must say sometimes the gimmick works. I pretty much trained my horse myself and I don't own a "carrot stick" and I don't watch "Downunder Horsemanship" telecasts. I just use regular old common sense. But for some people, they like the contructed set up. Which is why people see results in things like weight watchers. There really isn't anything wrong with the system. I just comes down to if you want to do it your way, or theirs. They both can work if done correctly.

I feel I got off topic there. But I find this thread intriguing. I think I will subscribe!!
 
#21 ·
I would not.

The people watching the PP DVDs will quickly "learn" that they are the worlds best horse trainer ever and they know far more than any person who does not follow the system presented on by the all knowing man with the big mustache.

People who do not drink the Kool-aid are far more likely to take advice and look for help even if it is not with a trainer.
 
#23 ·
Frankly I don't see the difference. It fascinates me that people separate NH, both those that do it and those that don't.

At the end of the day, whether it be some NH named brand or more traditional training methods, they are the same.

95% of training going on around the world with horses is trying to establish control of components - head, neck, shoulders, ribcage and hind and doing it using negative reinforcement techniques. (ie do it or else)

Whether you use a carrot stick, no stick, rope, wear a cowboy hat or a hardhat makes no difference.

If people got passed that on both sides then we could actually focus on what makes a difference, and on progression of skill, instead of the same junk recycled over and over.

As for dumbing down, sorry but I blame the US. Guys i have list of American friends so no offence intended (they largely agree tbh) and I would love to live there, but as a culture everything keeps being dumbed down. Here in the Uk we are following like sheep as usual. I blame the media, but nothing lasts more than 30 seconds, takes any attention, focus or commitment, and everything is disposable.

The biggest single change we could make to every horse? A celebrity horseman who could make anatomy interesting and sexy. If I meet one more vet or farrier who doesn't know what a Frog spine is or has no concept of muscle fascia and their importance, or still believes magnesium is a calmer - I'll scream! :twisted:
 
#25 ·
The biggest single change we could make to every horse? A celebrity horseman who could make anatomy interesting and sexy. If I meet one more vet or farrier who doesn't know what a Frog spine is or has no concept of muscle fascia and their importance, or still believes magnesium is a calmer - I'll scream! :twisted:
This I can TOTALLY get behind. I was at a barn that swore by the Clinton Anderson method. But they misconstrued a lot of what his teachings entailed. They would lunge on these tiny circles at a canter for ever because they felt all horses needed to be worked on the ground first before riding, according to Clinton Anderson. But CA clearly states that not all horses need the same level of ground work as others. And it varies horse to horse, day to day. And I do not think he meant to canter them around in one direction on a 10 meter circle for 20 minutes.

This same trainer would use ridiculous tie downs. These crazy lead rope rigged tie downs from the horse's poll to the bit to the horn of the saddle to the girth, it was NUTS. These young horses had their necks contorted into place without have the muscles worked there. They were just put there. This is not how CA works (I am pretty sure).

Yet, the people following the CA training method didn't believe in providing horses forage during the day. Really?!?! I tried to explain this to them and their response was that they owned Quarter Horses. They didn't need pasture or hay during the day. :shock:

I just thought to myself, You're joking right? Maybe you should put down the CA articles and pick up a book on Equine Digestion.
 
#24 · (Edited)
I moved from a place where NH methods and philosophy were commonplace -- almost everyone utilized at least some elements of them to work with their horses -- to one where they are virtually non-existent.

Guess where the horses were, overall, better behaved on the ground, nicer to ride, and people were less likely to resort to things like martingales and draw reins to solve problems?
 
#26 ·
Silver

I had a similar experience. I think thats because such systems help the human more than the horse (indirectly helping the horse therefore). They do this by providing set cues and instructions to carry them out. This creates more consistency from the human. Consistency until you become so refined that you can literally create 'whisper sentences and read the response' rather than just shouting 1 syllable words is very important to the horse.

Most people without such a system react based on their mood at the time, and are not consistent. I see people shouting back, then get back, then shift, then move!, etc etc, all asking for the same thing. The horse can't understand the crap coming out of their mouths and has to try to read the frantic body language and intent. If the human is stressed, so will be the horse.
 
#29 ·
Yes, true!

The problem with so many of the Kool-aid crowd is that they are taught from their DVDs that these DVDs and what they teach is all they need for any horse. That means most in the drinking crowd are not willing to look outside the box (of DVDs) for other ideas when Dobbin is not thriving on the run in circles technique.
 
#33 · (Edited)
I'm not opposed to NH as a whole. In fact, I use some of the elements with Aires (our personal favorite is the "What's this?" game that our friend taught us who uses CA's methods). HOWEVER, I personally don't think it is for every horse. The gelding I used to have was "trained" by some of those "Kool-aid crowders" who watched the Parelli DVD and then thought they were all-knowing.

Dakota is 3/4 arab and 1/4 saddlebred and will take advantage anywhere he can. He was fat, lazy, spooky, and a downright pill when he was sent to my friend for "re-training" because his owners couldn't handle him. He was lazy because, according to his owners and what they "learned" from PP, if he acted spooky or afraid of something while under saddle, they got off him and put him away so it wouldn't cause him to be afraid of whatever it was. So, he learned VERY quickly that he could just act like he was spooked and it got him out of work. Same thing on the ground. He would spook at his own shadow if he thought it would get him out of doing something he didn't want to do. It took literally DAYS of a stronger hand forcing him to confront the things he was "afraid" of before he became even remotely sane in-hand. It took further days of forcing him to stand tied on the wash rack before he stopped dancing around because his old owners used to put him away if he acted antsy (because, again according to them, PP said to). It took WEEKS of daily work to teach him how to lunge (because, according to his owners, PP says not to lunge) to get him to where he was rideable again. When my friend did ride him, he pulled his head so far into his chest that his chin was literally touching his chest. Why? Because these people who swore by PP rode him in a martingale that was adjusted to keep his head that close in.

However, the spooking and all that weren't his real issue. His real issue was the fact that their trainer (who was a self-taught PP disciple) would not correct the tack problems, but kept stepping up the harsh aids in order to get Dakota to behave. They started him over 24" fences as a 3yo because their "trainer" said it was okay. Dakota loved to jump until it started to hurt. As a 5yo, he started having arthritic changes in his hocks and refused to jump because it hurt so bad. So, they switched him to Western pleasure (he is SO not a WP horse!). Their saddle was too small and pinched Dakota's shoulders, so he let them know he didn't like it by becoming difficult to handle. The "trainer" put him in a twisted wire snaffle straight away. She didn't even TRY to figure out what the underlying issue might be. That ticked him off even more, so the "trainer" had them riding him in spurs (rowled Western spurs). That made it even worse, so they tied his head down to his chest. However, after a few months of working with him, a saddle that actually fit him pretty decently (never met a horse so hard to fit a saddle on!), and calm, consistent training, I was riding Dakota in a french-link snaffle with absolutely no training aids. He was calm (bordering on half-asleep lol) and responsive. Never tried to balk, spook or run off with me (like he did his old owners). Yes, I had to shank him quite a few times to get him to listen and stop being an idiot. Yes, he got fisted in the ribs when he tried to dance over the top of me while I was wrapping his legs before a workout (apparently any sort of "violence" is strictly abhorred by the NH crowd?). But, that's what it took for this 900lbs horse to realize that 170lbs me was in charge and that his stupid BS wouldn't fly. No amount of wiggling the lead rope to make him back up or any of that stuff was going to stop him climbing up my shoulder when he thought he saw something that *might* spook him.

We have a lady at the stable where we board that did Parelli with her arab gelding. When I mentioned that I had to shank Dakota, she nearly blew a gasket. She spent a good thirty minutes lecturing me (without me able to get a word in edgewise) about the evils of shanking and violence against horses in general. She said just wiggling the lead rope at him would have been enough. As soon as her steam ran out, I informed her that Dakota had initially been trained using PP's methods and that was what caused me to have to use such a stern hand with him. Her gelding got out the other day (she lives 2 hours away) and it took FOUR people a good thirty minutes just to catch him in a stall he'd wandered into because of the Parelli games she uses (the "Catch me" game or something like that?). When I brought that up, she had no response other than "You didn't play the game right." I'm sorry, but I shouldn't have to play a game (that I have no clue about) with another person's horse in order to catch it. None of the other horses (that were trained with more traditional methods) are difficult to catch in the turnout, but her gelding is nearly impossible. Just sayin'...

As for the NH making horse training "dummy proof"...here's one of my FAVORITE quotes by British author, Douglas Adams:
“A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.”

I think that this is the case with NH. It makes every armchair cowboy think that they're a trainer, when all they end up doing is ruining a good horse (as in the case of my Dakota).
 
#40 ·
As for the NH making horse training "dummy proof"...here's one of my FAVORITE quotes by British author, Douglas Adams:
“A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.”

I think that this is the case with NH. It makes every armchair cowboy think that they're a trainer, when all they end up doing is ruining a good horse (as in the case of my Dakota).
I guess that was kind of my point using the term "Dumbie-proof." Now, I don't use any of the NH stuff myself, but, for the "armchair cowboy's" out there, I think that there is a chance they are going to ruin a good horse regardless. Even if they aren't buying a C.A. DVD, there is some unknowing horse owner out there surfing WikiHow.com to learn how to join up.

You can't make an animal, with its own brain and thought process, "Dumbie-proof." They are animals and can be unpredictible. But I can see why PP, CA, and the others want to make a dime on the attempt. People will buy it, thats the sad part. It works for some, not for others, and these TV trainers are making money on it.
 
#34 ·
The only training videos I own are by John Lyons. I have a number of books on riding/training, and most of them involving working with the way a horse thinks, rather than contrary to it.

I fail to see any harm in that. I've met cowboys who thought spurs were used to punish, and cowboys who used spurs to get outstanding performance from a willing horse. I've seen ranch hands (and non-ranch folks) use come-alongs to force a horse in a trailer, and others who taught their horses to load.

Frankly, anyone who uses the "I'll beat the hell out of you" method of training a horse is not a horseman at all.

Teaching newbies like myself how to read a horse's body language is NOT harmful in any way.

I don't know any Pat Parelli games, and I don't have a TV so I don't watch Clinton Anderson. I will say that John Lyon's approach, used by a trainer we hired and, to the extent I can, used by me when I work with our horses, has been very effective with 2 horses, and is working (slowly) with my third. The two horses trained using those principles were a 6 year old unbroke Arabian, and an Appy/Arabian cross who had been abused by cowboys on a working ranch, and who has the scars to prove it. The third is my very stubborn, dominant and fearful mare...I suppose I could shoot her, but I'd rather try to teach her instead. Forgive me!

Natural Horsemanship doesn't involve blowing unicorn snot into your horse's mouth. It does involve correcting the horse in a way the horse is capable of understanding, without just beating the tar out of the horse.

Yes, I've hired a professional trainer to help us - but she is here once each week. I'm here all the time, and training my horses for good or evil every time I'm around them. Running a horse ragged in circles every time you ride him is NOT NH. Accepting bad behavior is NOT NH. Buying a DVD & some overpriced gimmick is NOT NH. And spurring your horse bloody in anger is NOT being a good cowboy.

There are idiots everywhere, including ranches and NH clinics. I've also been given excellent advice from both cowboys and NH trainers. The trick in life is learning to recognize BS, regardless of who slings it.
 
#35 ·
Monty Roberts' method has allowed me to gain more control over Hugo. I tried others, Monty works for us.

I think the biggest problem with NH is the layman thinks/believes that reading a book or watching a DVD equals a bypass to massive amounts of time and hard work. Yeah, Pat Parelli or Clinton Anderson may be able to quickly turn bad behavior around but these guys have been doing this for YEARS.

Cesar Millan frequently states that although he can 'work miracles' on dogs in minutes it comes from years of practice. His method works for me and mine. I have three rescue dogs who have benefited greatly from it. I've studied and practiced and made mistakes but I kept at it. Heck, I even used the techniques on my son. Tssst brings my household to a standstill. I have become calmer and a much better leader as well. I consider the seven years it took to get here to be time well spent.

The fact is, no yahoo will ever be able to watch a DVD, go to one workshop or read a book and become a 'Horse Whisperer'. Nice fairy tale but not reality. It takes much time and hard work to become a good trainer.
 
#36 · (Edited)
I have a problem with Natural Horsemanship. Every time I click on a youtube video that looks cool, but turns out to be a NH follower, I want to vomit. Somebody's crouched down with their "ears laid back" trying to imitate Pat Parelli or trying to join up like Monte Roberts. Looks so silly.
I have to say that's a harsh statement. Most people will never be Clinton Anderson, or Monty Roberts, or John Lyons and realize that, however I do NOT see why they can't practice their methods and why they can't take videos and share them. I take video of my rides all the time (to see what I do wrong and what to improve). Sometime I do share (mostly shows), and I'd be appalled to hear someone says they want to vomit looking at my video. If you want to vomit - don't watch!

Now... I don't practice NH. As well as I don't like working on ground unless there is a real need (I prefer to get on and work). However while back when I just started my horses (having very limited experience) I found "Respect on ground" by CA to be very helpful to address problems I was having with my qh. It was easy, straightforward, and had lots of common sense in it. And I do use a stick (bought at the Expo for $8) for trailer loading and sometime ground work when I bring them up after the winter break, because I like it more than whips for use on ground.

There are people out there who believe in NH and do it. They are happy with it, and it works for them. Many don't go for $40 carrot sticks or $30 halters. And I don't understand why such people don't deserve a respect from those of us, who don't practice HN. :?
 
#38 ·
...However while back when I just started my horses (having very limited experience) I found "Respect on ground" by CA to be very helpful to address problems I was having with my qh...
I've been working Mia from the ground for a while now. She gets afraid and then spins herself out of control. And unless she has learned how to have bad diarrhea at will, it is genuine fear - and I'm getting too old to want to deal with bolting all the time.

Most of the ground work I've done with her has been letting her spin up, then working her to calm her down. When I started, she could spin herself up for 20 minutes of out-of-control running. Now I can spin her up, say "Easy", and she slows to a walk (about 80-90% as of yesterday).

I also used some of the same principles to teach her to stand quiet while tied. Her first lesson was painful - literally, since she fell at a gallop! (Glad I wasn't on her at the time!) But by the end of the session, she was standing quietly tied. I'm still working with her on it, but she is standing quiet on 12" of slack - this from a horse that broke a hitching post the first day I had her. My goal is to have her standing quietly at a post near the road with me not there - and I'm not there yet, but then, I need to bury a post there first...

That doesn't mean I plan to ground work her forever. But both the vet and farrier have commented on how much quieter and relaxed she is now, so it is working. I hope to start riding her again next week.

Maybe there are others who could have just beat her into submission, or maybe there is a NH trainer who could have done the job in a day. Don't know. I'm what she has...and I don't think I'm wrong to work with her instead of sending her to Mexico.
 
#37 ·
As a Former Parelli student I totally agree with you. I was 16 and I saw the awesome things that they were doing on their horses. Jumping over picnic tables bare back- it was breath taking. Fast Forward a few years and my now husband and I are at a horse show and my horse is getting a little worked up. I began to lunge him and asked for a stop- And then I hear roars of laughter from my husband. He is crying he is laughing so hard and he asked my why I had to bow and kiss my horses *** to get him to stop. After re- watching the DVD's I was appalled at how horrible the training method is. My husband is currently re- training me with the Ken McNabb approach. My husband was an apprentice of his a few years ago and I cannot believe the difference in my horse with a "Cowboy" trainer. I agree with your definition of a Cowboy- Just because you wear a hat does not make you one. You have to earn it.
 
#41 ·
... I agree with your definition of a Cowboy- Just because you wear a hat does not make you one. You have to earn it.
If the only real cowboys are those who are good with horses, then can we say the only real NH trainers are the ones who are good with horses?

NH is NOT about kissing your horse's butt. It IS about teaching your horse in a way that makes it easy for the horse to learn. How can anyone object to that?
 
#43 ·
Why is everyone blaming the "Cowboy's"? I know plenty of English, Gaited, Trail and Saddle Seat Riders and Trainers that have used horrible methods of training and used natural horsemanship that have ruined horses. Everyone is blaming Western riders for ruining horses and bad training methods. Bad training can be found in ALL DISCIPLINES. Sorry I am a Cowgirl at heart and it hurts that only the western riders are getting bombarded here.
 
#45 ·
Don't worry, rlcarnes. Some english disciplines are getting bashed too all the time. :wink:

And yes, it's not about discipline, it's about BAD RIDERS and BAD TRAINERS. That's it.
 
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