"many riders have learned to sit up straight, put their shoulders back and their heels down. Our studies have shown that this often does not work for the horse because it causes him to become stiff and restricted in his movement and put more weight on the forehand."
I dunno, I'm getting tired of NH people at my barn who went to a one week clinic and came back telling me how they know more than me. When they got back the big challenge was to use the yo yo game to back the horse out of a step up. In forty five minutes they couldn't get him to back up. I went in there and with two minutes of pressure to that spot on their chest and a firm grip on the halter I had him out. But that wasn't good enough because I didn't do it their way. Now I'm being criticised by a teenager whos never had a lesson, and one clinic, and I've ridden all my life come from a horsey familiy, showed, broke, and ridden, multiple horses, but she's got the gift because it's NH. Give me a break! Next time you get your horse out of the trailer, and don't yell at me when I tell you not to let him eat in there because it gives him no incentive to leave. But I don't think like a horse, nope, not at all.
Today's idea of "Natural Horsemanship" is the exact opposite of what is natural to horses. So if you want to figure out the NH way, think of what comes natural to the horse, then do the opposite. =P
Being surrounded by NH people, I was beginning to think I was the only one left with a brain in my head. I'm so happy to see I'm not alone here. It's so frustrating to see this poison spreading all over the horse world. It's totally based on the human mind, without a shred of the horse's psychology anywhere. That's no kind of horsemanship in my mind, that's..manmanship, or something xD
I find some of Clinton Anderson's stuff useful, but I still haven't managed to find a speck of good in that Parelli character's "horsemanship".
When it comes to horsemanship my main man, next to the horse of course, is Mr. Chris Cox. Now that's a guy who gets horses. I can't say I always agree with him, but for the most part he's definitely seeing it the right way.
Anyway..sorry I'm so thankful to finally get to release some of this pent up frustration and annoyance! Haha
Hmm, I see no gimmick here......Parelli works, you can't deny that. Plain and simple. And Pat is a master horseman. Anyone who wants to debate that, well, I think that person needs to pay a little closer attention to how horses respond to Pat.
I won't argue that Pat is one hell of a horseman. However, he learned that from a lifetime of working with horses and learning from THEM, not a DVD set. Contrary to what you may believe, he was not always the fluffy training version that he is today. He simply found out what the public is willing to pay big bucks for and started selling it (whether it makes sense or not). Many of his "minions" so often discussed create the problems because they are so focused on progressing to the next game or next savvy level or whatever that they don't actually watch and learn from the horse. That creates unhappy, sour, or bored horses. Then the people don't understand why the horse has so many issues with other things I.e. Grooming, shoeing, etc. Plus, what is the reason for jacking up the prices of everything so much? I can go to my local tack store and get a halter/lead for $30 less than he sells his for. Why would I spend $60 for a orange stick with a string hooked to the end of it when I can use a twig from a tree with baling twing? At least if mine breaks, I am not out $125 (cost of the first one then having to get another). And $106 for a "hackamore" that is not even a real hackamore? No thanks. I have got a $5 rope halter and $25 mecate rein that works just fine.
Originally Posted by Spirithorse
Perhaps you would be interested to hear what Karen Rohlf has to say about Parelli. Or to read her book. Karen, who is VERY well decorated in dressage, is a Level 3 graduate and incorporates Parelli into her dressage training. She takes the horse through the program before she ever starts any real dressage training. As she puts it, from what I can remember from her book, "I call what I do Dressage, Naturally, because I'm trying to fill in the gap where NH ends and dressage begins. NH teaches you a lot about the mental and emotional aspects of the horse, and some, but not as much, physical aspects. Dressage can teach you a lot about the physical aspects of the horse, but not as much about the mental and emotional aspects. If we combine these two things, then we have it all.....we have Dressage, done Naturally."
Well that says it right there. In order to get a finished horse, you must incorporate other methods. Some of Pat's methods are excellent as a beginning base but you need to take in every bit of information you can in order to get a finished horse in any or all disciplines. No one training method works for all horses!!!
What is really scary is before long, he will start selling DVDs specialized for training your horse in reining, barrels, cutting, dressage, jumping, WP, HUS, etc, etc. All in the name of money.
I am sorry for the super long rant and I am not ragging on you, Spirit, but it just frustrates me to hear people say that "insertmethodhere" is the only way to train to get good horses and every other method is either ineffective, cruel, or ignorant. There are just as many horses, if not more, that are screwed up by NH followers as there are with any other method of training. The whole reason for that is because they teach people tricks instead of understanding. People who don't watch the horse get confused and frustrated when their horse reacts differently than the one on the DVD. DVD's don't make horsemen, watching and learning from HORSES makes horsemen.
Anyway, no offense to the OP, but to avoid starting a fight, this will be my last post in this thread.
I do Believe that the money has gone to pats head but I believe that their is good in the 7 games. Although you CAN get your horses to do all of the movements/etc. that the games are intended for & to help, I believe the games are like exercises that have been made up to practice the skills etc. But are fun & can be turning into other games or exercises (what ever you want to call it) that are fun for the humans as well as horses. And although its not 'NATURAL horse man ship' because if it/anything to do with horses it would be they never have any human contact & are out in the wild grazing, It's got the 'NATURAL' sort of well, herd dynamics, such as the 'dominant' horse, well it this case human, moves the 'herd' members feet etc. Directing them with body movements & 'looks' Which is was the Parelli program is trying to enforce. It's all about you & your horse being a 'herd' of two, that when we domesticate horses/ponies, we agree to taking on the role of being the horses 'guide/carer', & the 'alpha' horse, the herd leader. Parelli is just a 'training' or 'group of exercises' made to try & be as 'horsie' as possible. Without growing 4 legs & a tail. As for the 'carrot stick' it can be called what you like (god knows why pat called it a carrot stick) but in Parelli's eyes its a 'extension' of you. So if your horse is farther away than your arm/ or what ever, can reach you have the 'stick'. It's not a whip because in no way shape or form is it bendy.... Now sorry to take over the thread caz it wasn't ever about Parelli. ;)
OH, & with the equipment being sold, not just the ropes, halters 7 carrot sticks etc. But of course you can do & buy the same stuff for much much less. But it's just all about marketing, etc. If the only income you were bringing in was just buy selling tickets & DVD's, Im fairly sure you'd be investing in having other horse items for sale etc. Especially with all the land, horses etc around the country just earning money on tickets & DVD's wouldn't be enough to live such a 'luxurious' life style, fly all around the world (with your horses) to run seminars etc, paying bills etc. So yes some of it is a (well not gimic) but not nessasary items, But it's all about the branding etc.
Well that says it right there. In order to get a finished horse, you must incorporate other methods. Some of Pat's methods are excellent as a beginning base but you need to take in every bit of information you can in order to get a finished horse in any or all disciplines. No one training method works for all horses!!!...
... it just frustrates me to hear people say that "insertmethodhere" is the only way to train to get good horses and every other method is either ineffective, cruel, or ignorant... DVD's don't make horsemen, watching and learning from HORSES makes horsemen.
Please don't turn this into a "lets bash the professional clinician" thread.
I for one am glad they are out there to help horse lovers who need help when no other is available.
The OP's question was "how do you define natural horsmeanship?" Back to topic
I think the key is taking aspects of as many different training methods as possible, including NH. There ARE some good things taught in NH, I'm just not willing to pay eleventy billion dollars to play games with my horse.