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How Natural Is Natural Horsemanship?

5K views 28 replies 13 participants last post by  Ray MacDonald 
#1 ·
I always thought the term natural horsemanship was strange because everything we do with and to a horse is unnatural no matter how we try to dress it up and label it. I guess I am thankful for natural horsemanship techniques and how they have somewhat put to rest the archaic notion of "beating a horse into submission" physically. Horse psychology enthralls me. I guess natural horsemanship is trying to probe into the reasons why horses do things and then working with the horses natural instincts rather than against them. But even then asking the horse to do anything other than stand in a field and graze with it's buddies is pretty unnatural.

I guess if you wanted to be a natural horseman you would do the same. Stand around with your horse buddies. You would lose the idea all together of getting on the horses back, that's like a lion jumping on a water buffalo's back and saying giddy up. There would be no ropes, no halters, no means of controlling your herd mate other than your natural body language. Just you, your horse friends, and some flies.

I guess some would call me a nut because I often do just that. Sometimes I climb in the hay keeper and spend hours just watching them eat. Sometimes I sit under the apple tree and just quietly watch them do their horse thing. I am not a natural horsewoman, I am just a woman who enjoys her horses. I enjoy them being horses and appreciate the fact that tolerate all the crazy unnatural crap I put them through. I am not a horse, and my horse is not a human. I do not try to super impose my beliefs, feelings and desires on my horse. I do not selfishly spoil my horse so I can reap some temporary high from feeling the horse is showing me "affection". My horses respect me, they listen to me and I listen back to them. We hold conversations without words, conversations of intentions & will, where my horse always has the freedom to be just what she is, a horse.

I know this post will piss some people off, it is just my opinion, my observation if you will. Do you really think natural horsemanship is natural?
 
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#2 ·
I agree with you completly. I think there is no part of horsemanship (natural or otherwise) that is actually natural.

I also like to observe my horses and am totally obsessed with what they are thinking. Its a human flaw. They are probably thinking about what crap grass this years crop provided and how good it felt to roll in the mud and whether Sally would like to go for a lil romp.

Horse training is horse training. Whether it is natural or unnatural. We all make the horse do something that is not directly in compliance with their bottom line. One could even say forcing them to eat grain and shoveling their poop is unnatural. In nature, they eat what they can and leave their poop as proof to other herds that they have been there.

Riding is basically imposing your will on an animal. Its not always about a power struggle..infact the best rides are on a horse who is honest and willing on his own.

We love them, we take care of them, in return we offer them a longer and easier life. I think its a fair trade!
 
#3 ·
While I really liked your post, herdbound, I have to disagree with "tolerate all the crazy unnatural crap I put them through". Many horses really enjoy the crazy unnatural crap. :wink: Like treats, blankets, petting, brushing, and even work (hard at times).

 
#5 ·
Thank you!! You are right, NH is supposed to be about understanding your horse and communicating in a way that they understand. All that hooplah with the swizzle sticks and majickal strings and silly games is just ridiculous marketing. Good horsemanship is good horsemanship regardless of what little nickname it has. I like to think that some of my horses enjoy my company. Do they love me? Questionable. Do they like me? Some of them do and I know some of them don't. The only constant is that I am the alpha mare and they will respect me. They are my friends, sure, but first and foremost, they are beasts of burden and my job. I will ride them with saddles and bits and they will obey, but I do try to do things with as little force as necessary.
 
#6 ·
Well, what's natural??? You might say most humans aren't natural. Maybe only "savages" are natural? Anyway, I see "natural" horses as what's called "wild" horses. And I don't actually think their lives are all that wonderful. I told a vet once, if I hadn't bought this young filly, she'd probably be out in the wild, pregnant. (She's a tiny, somewhat stunted little thing.) He said, "Running free and pregnant? Sounds like a great life!" Hmph. From a female point of view, maybe not.

Horsemanship is part of culture. It's something that's evolved between the species, and surely that was natural? We ate horses; we used horses; we fought wars with horses; now they are part of our sport, or recreation, or in many cases, they fill the need we have to get back in touch with-- nature!:wink: And I really believe most horses like the interaction.
 
#7 ·
kitten_Val I think you are right "tolerate" wasn't the best word choice. I don't know if you feel like this but sometimes I do...I look at my mare and she is so HUGE and it amazes me she so willingly submits and follows me. Maybe thats why I chose tolerate because I don't always feel "worthy"...does that make any sense???? I remember the first time my mare let me come in her stall and lay on her side while she was down. It was such a special moment...kinda like time just stood still...she didn't try to get to her feet, we just relaxed for some time -together...there was so much trust in those moments it was just wonderful...like an ahhhhhh haaaaa moment if you will. It felt very "natural" but it was unnatural too...like the lamb laying down with the lion...so to speak

Beling - A horse would rather be free running across a field pregnant as can be because that is what is natural. You ever seen a mare in heat...she craves getting prego if there is a stallion around...a horse would rather be free than in the confines of even the most elaborate barn. What humans desire and what horses desire are sooooooooooo different.. horses have been forced to coexist with man and to live within the confines of our man-made environments, and unfortunately if we didn't see them as a source of pleasure like we do, they would be a source of food. I am happy that horses are in my life, even though I know it is somewhat selfish. It is what it is now, there is no going back...I just am saying it is not as natural as it is sometimes made out to be.
 
#8 ·
kitten_Val I think you are right "tolerate" wasn't the best word choice. I don't know if you feel like this but sometimes I do...I look at my mare and she is so HUGE and it amazes me she so willingly submits and follows me. Maybe thats why I chose tolerate because I don't always feel "worthy"...does that make any sense????
I know what you are saying. :)
 
#9 ·
I want to bring up argument MM brought while back when we were discussion some training issues...

Horses we own so domesticated, that while of course they have instincts from wild, their whole thinking is very different from wild horses. Because of the environment. If you throw the grown up horse into the wild I'm not all that positive it'll be able to survive (and stay healthy) for very long. Also even horses in pastures still very happy to see the feed buckets coming :wink: , and most of them prefer that to running in field free, grazing, etc.
 
#10 ·
Maybe we have changed them...I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing? I am happy to have them in my life now, but at what cost is it to the horse. Maybe I over think things too :) I just get so sick of hearing certain names that are linked to natural horsemanship...sometimes I feel it is cultish (thats probably not a word)...I don't know if maybe we started a "naked horsemanship" craze and marketed it right...maybe we could sell clinics where everyone comes in the nude so they can have a closer connection with thier horse....I think its more about marketing than having some substantial merit. I do agree with them that spending more time with your horse is productive...but come on I don't need to pay 400.00 to know that...thats just common sense.
 
#11 ·
Maybe we have changed them...I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing? I am happy to have them in my life now, but at what cost is it to the horse. Maybe I over think things too :)
I'd say it's a good thing. :D Because 1) we can enjoy their company, and 2) they generally live much longer with us than in wild.
 
#12 ·
I don't think that NH has as much to do with whether or not it's natural for the horse or not, as much as it's about how we communicate with our horses. A lot of NH is based on how horses communicate with each other, and us using that language to communicate with our horses. To ensure that we are the highest in the pecking order of our herd, so the horse will look to us as a leader instead of a herd mate. Just look at it as learning a new language to communicate with a new friend.
 
#13 ·
PaintedFury I understand the dynamics behind it...and I agree with them that do make sense to the horse... I just think it is weird that the predator/prey aspect is so askew in horsemanship that is all. It is a great testament to the intelligence of the horse to be able to adapt and thrive in such a strange arrangement.

kitten_Val thank you for your last post...sometimes I have doubted man's effects on the horse but you are right...they do seem to live longer while in our care...and I can't even imagine my life without them...I am herdbound soooooo bad.
 
#14 ·
You all have such great things to say about NH. You know, though I don't have any interest in Parelli and other such "systems" at least they have made retating to the horse as a HORSE become a mainstream method. It's better than many of the old ways of force and gadgetry. The thing I don't like about them is that they become systematic and thus people focus on getting the moves right, moving up the levels , playing the "games" and getting awards and certifications and such and don't really know WHY they are doing what they are doing. NH is about working with horses in the here and now. Working with the horse that is in front of you right now. Means you have to listen and observe that horse rather than look at some schedule to see what level of "game" you are goig to do today. No two horses will need exactly the same treatment . You have to listen to where they are and respond accordingly.
 
#15 ·
There is no such thing as natural horsemanship.

Either you are a horseman or just a rider.

A horseman communicates in sympathetic harmony with the horse which is the allowing process. A rider communicates in non-sympathetic disharmony with the horse which is the demanding process.

What encompasses the differences between demand and allow. The rider when demanding does not let the horse nor him/her self to be responsive, instead they both are reactive. On the other hand, a horseman will allow, through the extreme sympathetic responsive patience of the rider, the horse to be sympathetically responsive to the requests of she or he.
Before we continue let us show the definitions of these critical five words as they apply to the riding and schooling of the horse.
Demand means: “an insistent and peremptory request, made as a right”.
Allow means: “give or provide”.
Reactive means: “to produce a reciprocal effect, bodily resistance to an external stimulus, the tendency to oppose”.
Responsive means: “sympathetically responding readily to some influence.”
Sympathetically means: “acting with the same or similar feeling as another”.
The ‘attitude’ of the rider/trainer is the fundamental criteria one must observe in order to understand the restrictive nature of the particular rider/trainer.
Attitude means: “a settled opinion or way of thinking and the behavior reflecting this”.
 
#16 ·
Nevertheless, Spirithorse8, you CAN control a lot of horse behavior using force and "reactive" response. Sometimes that's all a person wants: basic control. You can call this person "just a rider" but so what, if he's getting what he wants. You don't need finesse to have a nice ride.
 
#17 ·
Very eloquently said spirithorse8. My philosophy entails the same viewpoint just not as verbosely said...you are either a participant or a passenger. A participant is working with the horses body and mind in unison - they are connected. A passenger lets the energy move around them, not into them - they are not connected. A horse understands moving collectively instinctively from his/her involvement in the herd dynamic. The herd, although made up of many members, moves as a collective being. Although you are on the horses back you can be moving with him as a collective being, or partition yourself off as a separate entity. Participant or passenger. Good horsemen/women are participants not passengers.
 
#21 ·
Horses we own so domesticated, that while of course they have instincts from wild, their whole thinking is very different from wild horses. Because of the environment. If you throw the grown up horse into the wild I'm not all that positive it'll be able to survive (and stay healthy) for very long.

Perhaps "some" are overly domesticated and I have a big, big problem with people stalling for endless hours, blanketing when its in the 60's, only riding in arenas and letting horses in because "oh no" its raining etc...


But I'd be willing to throw my hand raised colt out for a year to prove that wrong :) He'd survive just fine.

Last spring (spring of 2009) a family in this town lost there jobs and let the horses loose. The horses ran loose in the National Forrest up until last month. I just found this out a few days back and have been fascinated. No one here cared, the four horses stuck around one general spot. They're alive and doing great. Still friendly, no more "wild" than they ever were.
http://www.horseforum.com/#ixzz0yLXGVmU6
 
#23 ·
You guys can correct me if I am wrong...but aren't all the wild horses in America descendants of domesticated horses brought here by the Spaniards and other explorers who escaped...so the cycle is kinda like domesticated to wild to domesticated again. Maybe if you turned a lone horse loose he would have some issues, but if there was a herd let loose...I think they would make it.
 
#24 ·
I am always amazed by the willingness of my very intelligent quarter horse to work with me, and puzzle out that thing that will earn him praise.

It is said that the first horse was ridden in 4500 BC.
I think this confirms what I've always felt. Somewhere along the way it has become MORE natural to ride horses, predatory humans with eyes in front of their heads or not.

I would also point out that horses are naturally social creatures, and many indisputably enjoy socializing with members of the human species..
So define natural.

I definitely feel a spiritual connection with my horse when riding or playing. And who can't say the same with their babies?

Maybe it isn't "natural" for predatory humans to love and cherish flighty 4-legged vegetarians... but they do.
And it certainly feels natural to me!

As an endnote, I am also dissappointed by the insane marketing explosion with all the natural stuff. Just human nature to want to make lots of money, I suppose. And it sure works, huh?

I personally would say just plain ol' riding is as natural as it gets!
 
#26 ·
I agree very nice post Claire. I am always trying to get into my horses heads. They do this strange thing when we are trail riding. My husband rides a moped alon with us sometimes. He doesn't really ride horses, he has no interest in them. So he rides his moped and we all ride horses. The horses "think" the moped is another horse though. When he speeds up they try to keep up with him and if he goes out of sight, the call out to him, just as they would another horse. They assume I guess that because this "horse" has a rider on its back it has to be a horse. Maybe they think that is the natural way of doing things....I think it is rather funny.
 
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