Join Up - Page 2
   

       The Horse Forum > Training Horses > Natural Horsemanship

Join Up

This is a discussion on Join Up within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Join up leadership horse
  • People who dont agree with the join up method

Like Tree45Likes

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
    06-12-2012, 08:41 PM
  #11
Trained
I don't recommend join up to anyone that hasn't had experience with it before. You have to know what your doing and what your looking for. You can't just turn a horse out into a small area and chase him around. That is NOT the same thing as what join-up is.

I agree with what Sky said.

But, I'd say, if you don't have a trainer that's familiar with join up...I wouldn't try it. JMO.
DRichmond likes this.
     
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
    06-12-2012, 09:01 PM
  #12
Foal
Sometimes yes sometimes no

I have spoken to lots of people who like this method, if used properly, and not by chasing them around until they are worn out by any means.

This method worked with one of my rather untouched wild ponies, it did not and I believe, will not, work with the other who is extremely fractious and fearful. The alternative of being patient and waiting for her to decide I am ok is working much better.

I think you have to learn to read your horse and what they do and don't need. I can't imagine that you need to chase a horse around that you have handled since birth, if handled properly. Yes you have to establish leadership and let them know you are the alpha and that they cannot treat you like another horse but I don't think you have to make them join up to achieve this. I only started working on this method with the un-handled scaredy cats I rescued and I think it does have its place but only if done with much knowledge of what you are doing or it could backfire on you if you give off the wrong vibes/signals.

The foal that one pony had (surprise!) has been imprinted since birth and is doing great and handled daily.
loosie likes this.
     
    06-14-2012, 10:08 AM
  #13
Foal
One question I've always had with join up. Is it a one time deal or do you need to do it for a while everytime you work with a green horse?
     
    06-14-2012, 11:59 AM
  #14
Foal
Join up

I am no expert but I think it depends on the horse. Demos will show the horse joining up within "minutes" but I think this is unrealistic for the horse that is completely unhandled/wild etc. When we see a demo, they have somehow led the horse into the arena and then turned it loose. It likely got put on a trailer to get there. Therefore, unless it has been drugged (which pretty much defeats the purpose), it must already have been handled and somewhat halter broke. I don't think these are unhandled horses. I know people who have imprinted from birth, but do the join up so that later on, the horse will come right to you in the field and always want to join up (I do believe this carries over and once they join up they do it every time you come in to see them which is nice :).

That said, I have heard trainers say they kept the horse in the round pen until it joined up, taking hours or even days. I think with the unhandled horse you would have to rely on sessions (and I believe there is no timeline). I am going on 9 months with the pony (with a couple of setbacks that negated trust - no one's fault, just circumstances). She is SO much better to handle and we are very close to the "big" breakthrough, but if I had put her in that roundpen until she complied I think it would have been a disaster. She is a particularly sensitive mare, and young, and I don't know her background whatsoever ( could have been anything from unhandled to abused). She came to me very thin and scared and she was only 2.

I hope this helps, but as I say I am not an expert. I will say that as long as it has taken, I got goosebumps yesterday when she let me rub her almost all over and wanted to just hang out with me. When it starts to click it's great. I will also say that I am sure I could have done more to speed things up (maybe clicker training, more sessions - there were bad weather days and busy days that she didn't get worked) but overall I think it would have taken months but with good results.
DRichmond likes this.
     
    06-14-2012, 07:35 PM
  #15
Trained
Quote:
I have heard trainers say they kept the horse in the round pen until it joined up, taking hours or even days.


Quote:
one question I've always had with join up. Is it a one time deal or do you need to do it for a while everytime you work with a green horse?
Depends what it is you're wanting to teach & whether the horse has learned that well enough. Think about what exactly you're wanting the horse to learn (Trust me that the pressure only means move that part of your body away? Face me when I direct pressure at your rump?) & think about how you're going to get that through to the horse with minimal stress(which isn't helpful to the learning process, let alone nice for the horse & you want to be one of the Good Things in his life.
     
    06-15-2012, 01:12 AM
  #16
Foal
Definitely if you are going to start look for a trainer to walk you through it. I learned by watching a couple times, then trial and error with no one watching me. I got kicked once, I got too close to a very annoyed mare...(it ended well and I had learned my lesson though!) If you do it wrong it can be unsafe and hurt your relationship...

I am curious welshrider, what are you hoping to gain by trying join up?

Like I said, I am for it. Although it does not replace regular ground work it can work wonders done properly.

I also have never done it on a horse that was afraid of me, and would not use the approach I described at all with a horse that was. Depending on the level of fear join up may still work, but it would be handled entirely differently. Most of the horses I've used it on have not only not been fearful, but also lacked respect for humans.

Every horse is different and experience is what will tell you how to handle each one, in join up or otherwise. While you're still earning the experience a good trainer can tell you instead ;)
     
    06-15-2012, 01:43 AM
  #17
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by srh1    
Although it does not replace regular ground work it can work wonders done properly.

I also have never done it on a horse that was afraid of me, and would not use the approach I described at all with a horse that was. Depending on the level of fear join up may still work, but it would be handled entirely differently. Most of the horses I've used it on have not only not been fearful, but also lacked respect for humans.

Every horse is different and experience is what will tell you how to handle each one, in join up or otherwise. While you're still earning the experience a good trainer can tell you instead ;)
Agree !!!
     
    06-15-2012, 01:58 AM
  #18
Started
I would say that I do a modified version of 'join up'. Every one of my horses was different to train. Therefor, I had to adjust my body language, expectations, tools/aids and time spent on each exercise. But that is what each revolution is....an exercise, not mindless circles. It has taught me patience and to really learn horse body language while teaching me about my body language. I don't overdo it with long lessons....just long enough to get that effort from each horse. I feel it has given me a wonderful relationship with my horses. However, for me the lesson never ends....I am constantly applying the lesson. If I am leading, then I test them to see if they are paying attention to me....as if they are always asking me questions and checking in with me. Never just a straight line from point A to point B. I in no way am claiming that I am a trainer. However, I can say that what I have done has worked for me....whether or not it is considered the 'correct' method or not. I have used different variations from different trainers as needed by each individual horse. I think an important thing is to feel comfortable with whatever method you use so it is easy for you to be consistent and non-emotional creating a positive environment for your horse to learn and respect you.
DRichmond and Herdof2 like this.
     
    06-25-2012, 06:59 AM
  #19
Foal
I could not agree with you more oldhorselady, no one horse will have the same reactions as another, even if they are full brothers/sisters.

You have the basis for join up, the most important thing to do is get there, it may take a little longer with some horses and a little variation in your technique but as long as you "join up" then all is good.
Oldhorselady likes this.
     
    06-30-2012, 01:04 AM
  #20
Foal
As loosie and others have pointed out, its rather absurd to chase a horse away in order to get it to come towards you and stay with you. In learning theory terms what you are doing is punishing it for the very behaviour you will reinforce (reward) moments later.

As loosie also points out, in the wild (or even in our paddocks) horses don't chase each other around and around. They chase each other enough to get the other horse away and then they quit.

Lastly, there is no evidence in any of the peer reviewed studies of wild horses that head lowering, licking and chewing and ear orientation are signs of a horse "submitting to, respecting" or any other kind of acknowledgement of leadership of another horse. The only reliable sign that one horse acknowledges that another horse is more dominant than it is by moving away. Not coming towards or coming closer. Avoidance is the key indicator horse researchers use to tell who is top horse and who is not when studying wild horse herds.

Many species of animals will lick and chew after they have received a fright, including dogs, cats, cows, goats, sheep and horses. Its thought to be due to the drying effects of adrenaline on saliva production.

Lastly, Join-up works for the same reason that any horse training system works- negative refinforcement and classical conditioning. There is no mystery or magic to its effectiveness and it has nothing to do with the horse thinking that the trainer is another horse or that the trainer speaks its language. We lack a lot of the features that horses use to communicate with each other, like moveable ears, heads on long necks, tails, four legs etc.

If you really want to bond with a horse using food rewards to train it to perform specific behaviours is ideal. You will be giving it something it genuinely likes- food and it will associate you with getting that food. Getting chased is not rewarding for a horse and given we need our horses to stay with us rather than run away it is an illogical way to teach them stay.
loosie likes this.
     

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What exactly is Join Up? BarrelWannabe Horse Training 2 09-17-2011 09:25 AM
Join-up! amightytarzan5 Horse Training 9 05-03-2008 09:44 AM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0