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post #21 of 61 Old 06-30-2012, 04:40 AM
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post #22 of 61 Old 06-30-2012, 09:30 PM
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With my horse he was very bold! Took me multiple attempts to get him to realze I was leader! Now he is pretty good at understanding I am leader but I still have to refresh him at times.

Chad Barnes 6-16-85~7-22-13
Hero Act - Thoroughbred Gelding ~ Gunner - Quarter Horse Gelding ~ John Deere - Mini Gelding
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post #23 of 61 Old 06-30-2012, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HeroMyOttb View Post
With my horse he was very bold! Took me multiple attempts to get him to realze I was leader! Now he is pretty good at understanding I am leader but I still have to refresh him at times.
I don't believe you can force leadership, only work towards *earning* it. If it takes 'refreshing', I think it's more likely he sees you as dominant but not a worthy leader. If he's a dominant personality himself, I'd be avoiding dominance challenges actually.
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post #24 of 61 Old 06-30-2012, 10:04 PM
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I completely understand what you are saying, I did work with him on that for weeks before he showed me more respect. When I mean refresh its when he decides to become more "pushy." I do not like pushy and do a little refresher on him. But I could see how he see's me as more dominant but not completely his leader.

Chad Barnes 6-16-85~7-22-13
Hero Act - Thoroughbred Gelding ~ Gunner - Quarter Horse Gelding ~ John Deere - Mini Gelding
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post #25 of 61 Old 07-05-2012, 07:35 AM
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Oh no not again!!!!

As loosie and others have pointed out, its rather absurd to chase a horse away in order to get it to come towards you and stay with you. In learning theory terms what you are doing is punishing it for the very behaviour you will reinforce (reward) moments later.

As loosie also points out, in the wild (or even in our paddocks) horses don't chase each other around and around. They chase each other enough to get the other horse away and then they quit.

Lastly, there is no evidence in any of the peer reviewed studies of wild horses that head lowering, licking and chewing and ear orientation are signs of a horse "submitting to, respecting" or any other kind of acknowledgement of leadership of another horse. The only reliable sign that one horse acknowledges that another horse is more dominant than it is by moving away. Not coming towards or coming closer. Avoidance is the key indicator horse researchers use to tell who is top horse and who is not when studying wild horse herds.

Many species of animals will lick and chew after they have received a fright, including dogs, cats, cows, goats, sheep and horses. Its thought to be due to the drying effects of adrenaline on saliva production.

Lastly, Join-up works for the same reason that any horse training system works- negative refinforcement and classical conditioning. There is no mystery or magic to its effectiveness and it has nothing to do with the horse thinking that the trainer is another horse or that the trainer speaks its language. We lack a lot of the features that horses use to communicate with each other, like moveable ears, heads on long necks, tails, four legs etc.

If you really want to bond with a horse using food rewards to train it to perform specific behaviours is ideal. You will be giving it something it genuinely likes- food and it will associate you with getting that food. Getting chased is not rewarding for a horse and given we need our horses to stay with us rather than run away it is an illogical way to teach them stay.

You really don't know what you are talking about!!!!

I work with horses professionally and I am lucky enough to be able to observe the horses in the paddocks, stop looking romantically at the behavior of horses and look at the way they achieve their ranking in the herds pecking order, it is by chasing them away until they submit, you say the licking and chewing is caused by the drying affect in the mouth from adrenalin? have you ever observed a foal when it is with the mare? if she is submissive then the foal should also show its submission, it does this with the licking and chewing, the licking and chewing can be seen on a horse that is submitting but it is not being "chased", there is no fast physical exertion just body language.

learn your topic before casting your opinion!!!
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post #26 of 61 Old 07-05-2012, 08:32 PM
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learn your topic before casting your opinion!!!
^^ IMO about the most important point, re 'join up' or otherwise.... and don't just learn what the 'guru' that made it up or promotes it wants you to believe!
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post #27 of 61 Old 07-05-2012, 08:39 PM
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I do what works for each of my horses. It is not following an individual as if they are God, but taking the positives from each situation. If you are teaching and the horse is learning in a positive way...what is the harm?
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post #28 of 61 Old 07-05-2012, 08:40 PM
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OP its completly rewarding- People whom have never used this method just simply dont understand. Since your already interested- And have some good knowledge, Give it a whirl. The worst thing you could do is give your horse a good lunge. And My usual advice is John Lyons Round pen training google-Youtube. Its all there- Similar/same to join up
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post #29 of 61 Old 07-05-2012, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by HeroMyOttb View Post
I completely understand what you are saying, I did work with him on that for weeks before he showed me more respect. When I mean refresh its when he decides to become more "pushy." I do not like pushy and do a little refresher on him. But I could see how he see's me as more dominant but not completely his leader.
I'm afraid I don't think you do understand what I meant. 'Dominant' type horses play dominance games with eachother frequently. Playing them with your horse teaches him you're NOT a leader, but just a player, always up for a challenge... so he'll keep challenging. It sounds like he's luckily not too interested in being dominant, yet at least, or he'd have 'upped the ante' at your challenges. You need to stop playing those games if you want him to start seeing you in another light.
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post #30 of 61 Old 07-05-2012, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by KissTheRing View Post
OP its completly rewarding- People whom have never used this method just simply dont understand. Since your already interested- And have some good knowledge, Give it a whirl. The worst thing you could do is give your horse a good lunge. And My usual advice is John Lyons Round pen training google-Youtube. Its all there- Similar/same to join up
You're right I reckon, that it's rewarding *to the handler* because if they don't truly understand the process, it seems like magic when it works. If you're including me in the 'just simply dont understand' however, you're assuming wrongly. It sounds to me that the others that have responded similarly are equally as knowledgeable & experienced actually.

Very shortened background... after years of conventional type horse experience, I discovered 'NH', including MR & 'Join Up'. I did fall for MR's theory to begin with, not knowing any better & practiced 'Join Up', mostly successfully(according to the theory) on a wide range of horses(I was working with horses at the time, not just my own). Then I studied behavioural psychology & equine ethology and started to see it for what it actually is. Like I said, I now use 'join up' type exercises still sometimes, to teach specific things, but I now 'just simly DO understand' better than to use it according to MR's flawed theory.

Also as I've said plenty of times before... This is my opinion & experience. Don't take my word for it blindly, or anyone elses, 'gurus' or otherwise, but bother to learn what's behind it yourself, so you can come to informed & objective opinions. Because in practicing things you don't fully understand, the worst you could do is much worse than just 'a good lunge'.

Last edited by loosie; 07-05-2012 at 09:21 PM.
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