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Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling - True Horsemanship?

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  • Klaus ferdinand hempfling in spain
  • Does klaus ferdinand hempfling ride?

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    06-29-2011, 06:30 PM
  #11
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by To ride the sky    
I therefore am not upset by Spyder's comments and attempts to make a degrating generalization about horseman (people) who preffer to use as natural method as possible when training their horse. If that makes them feel less inept then all the power to them :)
Too bad you were not able to read correctly.

I have not degraded anyone but simply said that

1-- Every person I have seen that are hailed as being so great to work in a natural way all work with one breed/type of horse that most with any technical skill can master. The Iberian horse is built for this type of work so to show what is in those videos simply does not impress me.
2--I know of several that do exactly as Klaus can do and be able to TEACH it, one of which is the one that taught me, and he could get on a pony and do what Klaus is showing...and WITHOUT all the restraints you mentioned. Again if anyone is making generalizations it is you.

My point is that Klaus is not special until he can show the ability to work with anything.
     
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    06-30-2011, 01:46 AM
  #12
Doe
Weanling
Tiny - I do see your point. He has not released a DVD instructional box set yet unlike most trainers. His early DVD was designed to provide a physical image to go along with the first book so does not stand on it's own. In that sense it is a demo and not designed for instruction. As Northern said, this style of work is inherently dangerous. Can you imagine if the same PP type beginners tried it with anything less than puppy dog bred horses?

Spyder - if you look on You Tube there are many examples with non Iberian breeds. Im in a rush for work now, but if you can't find them I'll happily post tonight. Secondly I really don't see your issue with the Iberians. I'm not so much interested in the collection (though look at the transition in shape and musculature of the horses he works with - they did not come to him naturally collecting) but more the fact that he has control of these horses AND maintains their spirit. THAT is something that I do NOT see commonly.

If this is something that is so easy to do and you have been taught this by your mentor, then all kudos to the two of you.

I would love to see a video of either of you in action? You could post it here that would be great, I'm sure everyone would appreciate it.

I'm not saying that Klaus is the only one who can do this or the worlds best horseman. I am however raising the question that isn't this a better way to work? Isn't it something we would all aspire to?

As I travel on my lifelong journey to be a better horseman I find less and less great horse people and more and more with tricks and methods. Few can maintain the spirit of the horse because they fear it and label everything as disrespect. If they fear it then it is a lack of understanding, and a lack of understanding indicates they are not great horsemen. As does a closed mind.

As I say a video would be great Spyder, I am happy to learn.
     
    06-30-2011, 06:25 AM
  #13
Green Broke
Not my cup of tea. Sure, he's good. Maybe even great. But I prefer a bridle for me. I see it this way - he and his horse are speaking Spanish, in a world where everyone else speaks English. It doesn't mean it is wrong for them to speak it, but no one else can step into the conversation. I can, in theory, get onto any well trained horse in a single discipline and be able to ride it, because we all talk the same way. Could he get onto a GP dressage horse and replicate it? Probably not - he is speaking Spanish, the horse is speaking English, and they end up making rude gestures at each other instead of saying hi.
     
    06-30-2011, 07:22 AM
  #14
Yearling
The last video that shows "The Dance" seems just like join up to me. You speak body language and give the horse a chance to understand in a non threatening manner and set yourself as the leader. We all know that ground work translates directly to their backs. If a horse trusts and understands you on the ground your leaps ahead when getting on their backs.

I am just not personally a fan of the whole bitless trend. I am all for the promotion of kind and understanding training but I think what he does as basic ground work. Anything done with repetition can be trained so the bridleless part doesn't have much shock and awe for me.
     
    06-30-2011, 07:30 AM
  #15
Weanling
I think that people like Stacey Westfall and Clinton Anderson are not unlike him. He may say he doesnt want to be associated with natural horsemanship but his methods are not unlike theres (subtle cues) with legs, hands, objects, (such as the lunge whip and the lunge line). I like what he does, just can't see the difference if that makes sense. Also yes he wrote a book after 2 years of horses which is wonderful but does anyone truly know all there is to know about the psychi of horses after 2 years? I know after 2 years I sure wouldnt have wanted to attempt anything like that so cudos to him for that. After 30 years I am still on a quest to find out more. Im going to look for videos of him with other horses to see If I can see a difference but to date I don't see a difference.
     
    06-30-2011, 08:09 AM
  #16
Banned
It is always funny...in these threads if someone says something/anything against the NH trainer, the NH people instantly go into the insults about how that person just likes to be cruel and such thing.

Spyder makes some good points.

Being able to train one specific breed of horse to do a certain thing (in a manner that you can not explain to others even) does not make one a great trainer.

A great trainer can get those similar good results with a horse who is not naturally gifted in that area.
     
    06-30-2011, 08:40 AM
  #17
Banned
Here is a true "master".


About Jean-Paul — Professeur Dressage
     
    06-30-2011, 09:19 AM
  #18
Doe
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiilaa    
Not my cup of tea. Sure, he's good. Maybe even great. But I prefer a bridle for me. I see it this way - he and his horse are speaking Spanish, in a world where everyone else speaks English. It doesn't mean it is wrong for them to speak it, but no one else can step into the conversation. I can, in theory, get onto any well trained horse in a single discipline and be able to ride it, because we all talk the same way. Could he get onto a GP dressage horse and replicate it? Probably not - he is speaking Spanish, the horse is speaking English, and they end up making rude gestures at each other instead of saying hi.
Glad to see some discussion, thank you. I will deal with each post in turn as they all deserve a response.

Chiilaa, that's an interesting analogy and I do see where you are coming from. However that is the difference between training and language. The belief is that the true weight aids are much easier for a horse to understand as they work with their balance etc wheras many cues taught to horses actually interfere with their ability to do what it is we are asking of them. For example in reining I have seen many people lean back, and/or use their feet in front of the girth for a backup. Wheras a simple shift of weight forwards not backwards will position horses to backup, and amazingly they will respond if they are allowed to work it out and think outside of their conditioning.

In terms of the bridle it is simply the reverse. The finished horse can use a bridle, however not beginning with the bit or bridle means that we cannot rely on the reins and so weight cues are the only way to go. Modern day horseriding tends to work the opposite, teach kids in a snaffle and then if and when they advance, one day they might try to install the weight cues which becomes a lot harder.
     
    06-30-2011, 09:51 AM
  #19
Doe
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by CecilliaB    
The last video that shows "The Dance" seems just like join up to me. You speak body language and give the horse a chance to understand in a non threatening manner and set yourself as the leader. We all know that ground work translates directly to their backs. If a horse trusts and understands you on the ground your leaps ahead when getting on their backs.

I am just not personally a fan of the whole bitless trend. I am all for the promotion of kind and understanding training but I think what he does as basic ground work. Anything done with repetition can be trained so the bridleless part doesn't have much shock and awe for me.
Cecillia this and 'join up' are not even similar.

A little history if I may. The Picadero is literally 'a small room' and it square which is very important. It seems that the round pen came from the Picadero when horses were broken on a large scale and those lacking in the necessary skills to do it properly thought it would save time if there were no corners for the horse to escape to.

It is important that it is square for several reasons. Firstly it means the horse does not track a circle. If you look at the tracks its actually more like an oval racetrack. This means that the horse straightens and flexes, straightens and flexes, so it improves his suppling at each corner.

Secondly the horse is not just flung to the outside with centrifugal force and learns to correct his balance.

No in terms of the differences with join up. Join Up in my humble opinion has little to do with communication. Monty talks about representing a mare sending out a naughty colt but then goes on to talk of equus and howhe believes the outheld hand represents a predators claw etc. This latter is actually the truth.

When you watch horses sent out in the round pen, they are fleeing, except they cannot escape. They are on the forehand, heads usually thrown and bodies even bent to the outside as they want to escape, but they cannot. Aggressive gestures are made to send them out there until the horse gives up.

It doesnt want to communicate, it just wants to escape. If it can no longer escape then it has no choice but to attack or surrender. Fortunately for us most horses choose surrender. This is why it doesn't work with truly dominant horses (of which contrary to many peoples belief based on their own experiences there are very few). When you get a horse that wont surrender then you have trouble. Even Chris Irwin admits this in his book Dealing with Your Dark Horse. He recollects the time he and a mare at a show ended up in physical charges and beating in the round pen because she would not submit.

Yes I have seen a mare exclude a gelding from a herd. However that is very different. Firstly the excluded horse wants to come back in. Secondly it can leave and escape if it wants to. Thirdly it is not constantly driven. The only driving comes if it tries to perhaps go around to another side of the herd and get in there. Fourthly it is being sent by a mare and not being chased by a predator.

Join up is not the best start with a horse, however its not the end of the world. What really concerns me with join up is when its done almost routinely, like a dominance top-up. I see it time and again. The horse stops following people so they take it in the round pen. Meantime any relationship you have established is now being eroded because the horse has no concept of why this is being done. This unpredictable human who just decides to suddenly chase me around a pen?

Finally there is little communication development. Its purely dominance. I scare you and make you expend energy. Its uncomfortable isn't it? Ok well now you can come and follow me - that's more attractive to you than running around isnt it? That doesnt open communication.

In the picadero the idea is not to chase the horse. It is not to get them to ask to come in. It is to establish the beginnings of communication. To teach the horse to follow your changes in posture and movements of weight, and mimic these with his body. Also you have to work with what the horse offers.

Any establishing of dominance (except for a genuinely attacking horse) is actually done via leading exercises.

Finally these things are not based on repetition in the way that negative reinforcement training requires. In general circles riding bridless is considered fairly advanced. With KFH it comes in very early because its about weight cues as the basis of advanced riding exercises.

Totally agree with you about the groundwork moving you streets ahead when you transition to ridden. Wish more people took the time.
     
    06-30-2011, 09:52 AM
  #20
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe    
In terms of the bridle .... teach kids in a snaffle and then if and when they advance, one day they might try to install the weight cues which becomes a lot harder.
Blame the riders and trainers, not the inanimate piece of metal?
     

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