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Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling - True Horsemanship?

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    07-02-2011, 08:24 PM
  #81
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern    
And the difference, to the horse, between a light touch of a spur and the light touch of a heel is ___?
Surface area, plain and simple. Less surface area, more precision of the cue. Assuming of course that the spurs are being used correctly, as an aid of lateral movement and not to encourage forward motion.
     
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    07-02-2011, 08:30 PM
  #82
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern    
And the difference, to the horse, between a light touch of a spur and the light touch of a heel is ___?
It is different. Exactly what Scoutrider said.
     
    07-02-2011, 08:38 PM
  #83
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern    
And the difference, to the horse, between a light touch of a spur and the light touch of a heel is ___?
My mare was broke out in spurs, and I couldn't get her to listen to my nubby heels for the longest time. It's like the difference between me pressing my palm on you, or poking you with my finger. Spurs are harmless when used correctly; the ones with rowels aren't meant to jab into the horse's ribs; they're meant to be rolled along the side with pressure. If you take most any spur and make push it against your hand and roll it upward, you will feel no pain. I know because every time I go to a tack shop I do that with all the western spurs...lol.
     
    07-03-2011, 12:20 AM
  #84
Trained
Yes, the idiot cowboy who spurred Trooper left 2.5 inch holes in each side. One has since grown hair over it, the right side has not. The same idiot cowboy used an ill fitting saddle and wore a one inch hole in Trooper's withers...but that doesn't make saddles bad.

I cannot imagine what would happen at a reining or dressage competition if someone noticed the competitor's horse had a 2-3 inch hole spurred thru the skin. I'm guessing the rider would be lucky to leave alive.
     
    07-03-2011, 02:51 AM
  #85
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoutrider    
Surface area, plain and simple. Less surface area, more precision of the cue.
negative. Less surface area, more pressure. The precision of the cue purely comes down to the horses understanding and has literally nothing to do with the tack you use or the amount of pressure you put on the horse. With that in mind, if you can't do it in a snaffle or even halter and without spurs then you shouldn't be doing it at all.

Now I do show in leverage bits and I wear spurs because it all looks traditional etc. but I will confidently say right now that if you believe "refinement" comes at all down to the tack you use then you're greatly underestimating your horses intelligence.
     
    07-03-2011, 04:33 AM
  #86
Doe
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher    
negative. Less surface area, more pressure. The precision of the cue purely comes down to the horses understanding and has literally nothing to do with the tack you use or the amount of pressure you put on the horse. With that in mind, if you can't do it in a snaffle or even halter and without spurs then you shouldn't be doing it at all.

Now I do show in leverage bits and I wear spurs because it all looks traditional etc. but I will confidently say right now that if you believe "refinement" comes at all down to the tack you use then you're greatly underestimating your horses intelligence.
Spot on Christopher.
I agree that no tool need to be damaging or painful. Like a gun it needs someone to pull the trigger.

However there are a couple of points to make. Firstly there is importance in how it's been trained to begin with. Though the purpose of spurs is to roll and offer a lighter cue than a heel, too many people use them as a negative reinforcement tool, ie move or I use the spur. Even if later they become light, they will never become soft, because the underlying threat will remain and the horse is always conscious of that I believe. IF they are used correctly from the start however and that is not deviated from then again that is the difference between stimulus and pressure.

Secondly If we are at least agreed that we all wanted a horse that responds to the lightest cues and without pain, then surely my original discussion about weight aids being the ultimate goal makes perfect sense?

Weight aids cannot hurt a horse (realistically at least) and could not be much lighter. In fact when you move your heel to use the spur you have already given a weight aid. As such wouldn't it be better if the horse responded to that before the spur even moved?

The same goes for double reins and everything else.

To the poster that put up the videos, thank you I will watch them closely. I am sorry that those involved in dressage do not like my opinion. That is why I would not post in the dressage section, I am not an activist lol I just do not like what I see. If you look carefully at what I wrote I said I had not SEEN a horse (implied at FEI professional standard) that I believe is not tense and I believe is enjoying their work. I remain open minded and am happy to consider any such videos. I am sure that there must be some, however in general when I go to an event (or on the yard I was on for 2 years which was a professional yard) or I turn on the TV to RFD, I do not see it. As I say perhaps we see different things.

Finally to clarify my comments around reining. Again each to his own. My issues with reining at professional level are the training as much as anything. Horses are asked to carry often too heavy riders at as little as 2 years of age and trained hard. The drop out rate as I have seen it is very high. They are after the money of the futurities at 3. Their back does not set until between 5 and 6 years of age. The knees are the first to set, and that is all they look at. It is too young. My own horse was a product of that and I see the permanent damage that is done. His father was twice world champion and retired at a very young age, as did his mother at 8. Finally some (and I appreciate not all) of the training methods are incredibly harsh and domineering in order to get the low headset. Bumping on curb bits and spurs is not right in my opinion and I see it a lot. Is this the same for everyone? I am sure it is not, and I ma glad it is not. Where have I seen this? Training for the European futurities given by some of europes top professional trainers in the UK and Germany, and the FEI world teams. There was a relatively recent example where one of the national teams competing was even caught doping another teams horses. If they are willing to do that, then how much do you think they likely care about how they train a horse? As I say however this is not about sports per se I am just clarifying my experiences, best of luck to those that do not work this way.
     
    07-03-2011, 07:04 AM
  #87
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher    
negative. Less surface area, more pressure. The precision of the cue purely comes down to the horses understanding and has literally nothing to do with the tack you use or the amount of pressure you put on the horse. With that in mind, if you can't do it in a snaffle or even halter and without spurs then you shouldn't be doing it at all.

Now I do show in leverage bits and I wear spurs because it all looks traditional etc. but I will confidently say right now that if you believe "refinement" comes at all down to the tack you use then you're greatly underestimating your horses intelligence.
Perhaps I should have clarified my meaning.

Of course less surface area means more pressure if the rider applies the spur with the same intensity as they would/do with their heel. It's simple physics: same load applied over a large area vs a small area, and the pressure will be greater where the load is distributed over less area. I never said anything to the contrary. So, spurs apply a clearer aid by virtue (or vice? ) of upping the pressure and further localizing the application. Spurs are not tack, but an artificial aid, and allow less force from the to apply the same or more intensity of aid. I never said that if the horse doesn't understand the pressure that spurs magically train the animal.

Because a rider with spurs has the ability to apply pressure over, say, a half-inch square (as with my POW spurs) rather than approximately 2 square inches of heel pressure, several more things can be clearly asked of the horse in a smaller area, minimizing the movement of the rider's leg.

I don't know about everyone else, but when I do ride in spurs they barely touch the horse's side and I get the same result that a comparatively firm touch of my calf gets. That comparatively firm touch is still very light, simply backing up and clarifying weight aids.

As far as "doing it in a snaffle/halter and without spurs" goes, I do it every day in a snaffle and without spurs, and also have good control bareback in a halter. Kindly do not mistake an understanding and appreciation for what correctly applied spurs allow for in terms of refinement and precision of aids for reliance upon them for refinement period. Spurs certainly do not refine anything - only an educated and efficient rider does that. I claim to be neither.

My apologies for adding to the off-topic-ness of the thread - I do have more to say on the topic of spurs and their correct use, but I need to be on the road in half an hour and stalls have to be clean first...
     
    07-03-2011, 09:34 AM
  #88
Banned
Yes Northern I did make that up

It was meant to be a joke. And equilove I was trying to say I don't follow anyone's method to a T. And I wasn't 'chiming in' with 'my horse,' since I think everyone talking about training and methods etc. are talking about their experiences with their horses If I said I followed PP or CA I would mean with 'my horse' not the BO or my dog or neighbor What does someone have to be the best anyway? I watch a lot of youtube videos usually related to a certain area I want to work on, and have taken away a lot of things I could use not just by the famous people, but the 'mentor' types, that that aren't flashy, just show you something plain and simple, and end of video. I read, I study the horses when they're together and separate and I try to listen to my horse too. I don't understand all this bickering over who's the best.
     
    07-03-2011, 11:11 AM
  #89
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexS    
Could this entire thread be in the NH section?

It absolutely should be.

The NH section was designed for such opinions. I don't care if the person the OP refers to THINKS he isn't a NH person but with what has been posted it should in in that section...after all the NH section was NOT designed just for Parelli but ALL areas of NH.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe    
If you look carefully at what I wrote I said I had not SEEN a horse (implied at FEI professional standard) that I believe is not tense and I believe is enjoying their work. I remain open minded and am happy to consider any such videos. I am sure that there must be some, however in general when I go to an event (or on the yard I was on for 2 years which was a professional yard) or I turn on the TV to RFD, I do not see it. As I say perhaps we see different things.

.
By your own admission you have little to no knowledge of dressage so making any negative comment on a discipline you are ignorant in is an insult.

I don't make comments about areas I have little or no knowledge in so how dare you attempt to do so.
     
    07-03-2011, 12:24 PM
  #90
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder    
It absolutely should be.

The NH section was designed for such opinions. I don't care if the person the OP refers to THINKS he isn't a NH person but with what has been posted it should in in that section...after all the NH section was NOT designed just for Parelli but ALL areas of NH.




By your own admission you have little to no knowledge of dressage so making any negative comment on a discipline you are ignorant in is an insult.

I don't make comments about areas I have little or no knowledge in so how dare you attempt to do so.
THANK YOU.

Doe you are basically now trolling. I am sorry that you can't accept that dressage is a well respected discipline of riding and is not, infact, abuse. Anyone posting otherwise is an ignorant, close minded ignoramus and deserves to be treated as such. As spyder has said, we do not go into the nh forum and post about how stupid and abusive it is, you came here, asked for our opinions and then didn't like them.
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