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Main differences

This is a discussion on Main differences within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • 'natural horsemanship reefing'
  • Horse reefing chomping on the bit

 
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    12-17-2008, 01:36 AM
  #31
Zab
Yearling
Another thing I probably should say too is that if I do smack/hit a horse, it always have the chance to move away from me, because that's what I'm telling it to do. I can tap him on the shoulder or something if he's tied up when I groom or anything and he's not paying attention to me but maybe is looking at something and forget that I'm standing there.
I don't count that as smacking either, it's just asking for his attention.
I don't really tie him up very often either I just realized xD He had this fit with the saddle, showed slight panic when the girth was strapped. All he had to do to get calm again was to back (or walk but the wall is in the way) two or three steps, which he couldn't if he was tied up. So I let him loose instead. That problem is gone but I normally leave him loose anyway.

Sometimes I se people holding on tightly to the halterrope and correcting a pushing horse by hitting it with the loose end.. I've never understood what the horse is supposed to learn by that. Same when they hit a horse that's tied up to be groomed and is stepping around or maybe even biting at them. (I wouldn't tie that horse up, I'd put a long rope through the tying ring so that I can let him move away if he'd start getting bitey.. fortunatly I don't have much experience with those horses tho) If I hit a horse I'm just telling him to get out of my way because he refused to listen to me and is getting dangerous by his pushing/biting/kicking. I can't both hold onto the rope and push him away.. that doesn't make sense.
     
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    12-17-2008, 12:57 PM
  #32
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zab    
I'm not defensive, I just want to understand how you mean, because it doesn't sound right to me.

Horses smack each others too. I know this is a completely ancient excuse that's sometimes used by people who whip their hoses senseless, but it is a fact. If a horse desn't lsten to another horses warnings, the other horsewill go through with the warning or the firt horse won't listento him next time either. Of course if the horse goes into my space or bite me, I have missed the earlier signs, or hasn't responded right to them, and I have to figure out what was wrong. But my immediate response is to smack him, because no matter what - he's not allowed to bite, kick or physically push me away. If he only enters my ''bubble'' tho, I just back him. My own horse backs away for a small signal.
Yes, horses do "up their phases" with each other and to us it can look pretty extreme so we have a tendency to think "I couldn't hurt that horse. He gets kicked all the time. A smack would be nothing!" While it is true we can not hurt a horse physically by smacking him, we damage the relationship and rapport and the way the horse views us. A human, a predator, smacking a horse is completely different than another horse, another prey animal, kicking or biting another horse. Prey animal vs. predator. No matter how broke and domesticated our horses are, unless we prove to them beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are not predators they WILL view us as such, someone not to be trusted with their feelings, emotions, thoughts, whatever the case may be.
     
    12-17-2008, 01:06 PM
  #33
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zab    
And what do you do if the horse jst won't move away from you no matter how much you try to make him turn or go away? I've met a horse like that, she had the entire pasture to go in but when I came in there to do something else (cleaning it actually) she attacked. Only thing that got her away from me was throwing the buket towards her face and hit her with it. I know this isn't generally a normal behaviour, but what would you have done?
I'm not claiming she was a very happy horse then either, she needed to work and have something to do. In the end of that summer she cae to you with a much nicer attitude, didn't try to eat your feet if you rode but had her ears forqward and lots of energy - instead of as soon as you walked two feet she would turn and/or bite at your toes really hard. I didn't go and hit her every day, I didn't hit her when she reached for my toes either, but I did hit her when she refused to move away from me.
If a horse won't move away from me I will up my phases. But I ALWAYS give the horse PLENTY of opportunity to move out of the way first. If I am teaching the horse something I take a lot of time. If the horse knows what I am asking and still ignores me (which would be my fault for not putting enough emphasis on that part of my foundation) I will give a loooooong first ask (but still clear) and then a quick phase to back it up. But I do this in a way the horse will 1) understand and 2) respect. If I just go out and whack him for not moving that is not something worth respecting. But I will flick the horse in the chest with the lead rope. And then my "phase 4" as it's called in Parelli also depends on the horse. Some horses would leave the planet if you flicked them, sometimes just "the look" is enough for an effective phase 4. Some horses need to be flicked, but what I recently learned from an instructor is that flicking the hair only with intensity is enough to get your message across. Any more than that and you will be desensitizing your horse. I've used this idea ever since with my very dominant warmblood and the results have been fantastic. I rarely have to flick him anymore. And there was no smacking involved.

I don't know what I would have done with that mare. I wasn't there and able to see the horse and observe her. I would have had to be there.
     
    12-17-2008, 01:29 PM
  #34
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild_spot    
That's fair enough for a horse who is biting out of dislike/not giving you eprmsiion to touch him somewhere, etc. What would be your approach for a horse that has been treat spoiled, and bites at hands/clothes etc expecting treats? My horse did this, and my way of dealing with is was to stop giving treats by hand, and to pop him on the nose if he attempted to bite. What would be your approach, spirithorse?

Also, one more thing. I have an arab pony who has a habit of flipping his head up. It is not constant, and he is quite capable of being ridden around with hsi head in a normal position, but when doign fast/exciting work, which I do a lot of, he will flip his head up. Now putting a martingale on him, loosly, will stop him even attempting this, so it doesn't come into play. He has been checked for a sire back, has had his teeth floated, has no ulcers etc, so ti is not a pain reaction, but without the martingale he will flip his head up all the time when excited. What would be your approach to this problem? This is all very interesting :]
For the spoiled horse I still would not smack him. Horses who are greedy with treats are usually very sociable, like people and are generally friendly and might be said to be "naughty" at times. Their minds are generally busy and they are thinkers. Sometimes the horse will act dominant. Knowing this about their personalities is my first step to dealing with a horse like this. First off, I would not feed treats out of my hand at this point. No more of that. Second, I would work on getting the horse out of my space and to be able to stand and wait patiently. In doing this I NEVER move my feet. This shows the horse I am alpha in a very easy and simple way. I would work long-range with the horse first, getting him moving away from me with his front end, etc. I would work my way in gradually the more soft and obediant the horse became. Always rewarding the slightest tries. If I am up close and the horse starts to mouth on me I could either do body blocks, rub his nose/face REALLY FAST to make it very irritating, or back the horse up, depending on the horse's personality, dominance level and how determined they are. I've used all strategies and they all work very well.....as long as you use each strategy with the right horse. Since these horse's minds are generally very busy I would set up a lot of puzzles for him to figure out, so his brain is occupied on the task and not on trying to get a treat from me.

Once my foundation was working really well and the horse has all but stopped the behavior I can then add a treat for motivation/reward when the horse does something really nice. As soon as I give it to them we are off doing something else to keep his mind busy.

For the head flipping, this is a typical trait for an arab. I can tell you I wouldn't ride with a martingale. The reason is because like I said earlier, this is convinient for the human but is not good for the horse. I'm not saying you are a bad owner, I'm just saying it's natural for us humans to look for something of that nature to fix problems. He knows when the martingale is on and he knows what would happen if he flipped his head. So he doesn't do it. When it's off he knows and will flip his head. This should tell you something. The martingale is NOT fixing your problem, it's masking it.

Without seeing the horse, being able to read him in the situations where he will flip his head, I can only offer some ideas. When horses flip their heads like that usually that is a sign of confidence and/or dominance. Does he get impulsive during exciting activities? Do you hold him back or have constant contact on his mouth? If you do then that might play a big part in this issue. If you don't, it might just be that he is excited and exhuberant and is wanting to play. Arabs can have a tendency to be that way. Also, what kind of bit are you using? Sometimes horses will toss their heads if they don't like the bit. When he does flip his head are his ears back? Does his attitude seem negative?

I assume you have checked your saddle to make sure it fits properly. Have you had him looked at by a chiropractor? If not that might be worth a visit, just to make sure.

Again, without seeing the situation it's hard to say. I have a couple more ideas floating around in my head but they would depend on his emotional and mental state while he's doing the head flipping.
     
    12-17-2008, 04:53 PM
  #35
Yearling
Turns out one of my friends who lives in Kent ... her sister has borrowed a mix of various NH methods to work with her horse. My friend passed on my questions to her sister and reported the responses. Sister prefers Monty Roberts, but here are some excerpts from the conversation:

Claire says:
What about savvy string?
Claire says:
I always think that means silly string xD
Claire says:
-grabs a can, sprays a horse with it-
Claire's friend says:
"That's just a rope around its neck." And she made a funny face.
Eddeh says:
I accidentally asked, "What do you think of Petrelli?" instead of Parelli and she was like, "I love him. He can do anything anyone near him can do..." so I had to kick her.
     
    12-17-2008, 06:47 PM
  #36
Trained
Quote:
For the spoiled horse I still would not smack him. Horses who are greedy with treats are usually very sociable, like people and are generally friendly and might be said to be "naughty" at times. Their minds are generally busy and they are thinkers. Sometimes the horse will act dominant. Knowing this about their personalities is my first step to dealing with a horse like this. First off, I would not feed treats out of my hand at this point. No more of that. Second, I would work on getting the horse out of my space and to be able to stand and wait patiently. In doing this I NEVER move my feet. This shows the horse I am alpha in a very easy and simple way. I would work long-range with the horse first, getting him moving away from me with his front end, etc. I would work my way in gradually the more soft and obediant the horse became. Always rewarding the slightest tries. If I am up close and the horse starts to mouth on me I could either do body blocks, rub his nose/face REALLY FAST to make it very irritating, or back the horse up, depending on the horse's personality, dominance level and how determined they are. I've used all strategies and they all work very well.....as long as you use each strategy with the right horse. Since these horse's minds are generally very busy I would set up a lot of puzzles for him to figure out, so his brain is occupied on the task and not on trying to get a treat from me.

Once my foundation was working really well and the horse has all but stopped the behavior I can then add a treat for motivation/reward when the horse does something really nice. As soon as I give it to them we are off doing something else to keep his mind busy.


I forgot to add. I bought this horse only a few months ago off a lady who was a natural horsemanship instructor. I don't think it was Parelli that she practised, but she gave lessons etc in natural horsemanship, or her interpretation of it. Bundy is very respectful of your space, and you can move him away by directing your body at him, round penning him you can halt him by looking toward his hind, and many other things of this nature. The treat problem came about because she would go out every night and feed them carrots.

Your thoughts on his personality are all correct, he is very friendly and social, and definitely cheeky, I wouldn’t say naughty. The only things I have had to work on since I got him were the nipping, standing still ground tied (all my horses learn this) and moving forward in hand and under saddle.

I think part of the problem is that he is a very ‘mouthy’ horse to begin with, he will mouth anything, saddles left out, his leadrope, etc. I just make sure I don’t leave saddles or anything of value out near him, but apart from that unless he’s hurting someone I let him be, as he is just being curious. What would be your approach to the generally ‘mouthy’ horse, would you view it as a problem with a source, or just another facet of behaviour?

Quote:
For the head flipping, this is a typical trait for an arab. I can tell you I wouldn't ride with a martingale. The reason is because like I said earlier, this is convinient for the human but is not good for the horse. I'm not saying you are a bad owner, I'm just saying it's natural for us humans to look for something of that nature to fix problems. He knows when the martingale is on and he knows what would happen if he flipped his head. So he doesn't do it. When it's off he knows and will flip his head. This should tell you something. The martingale is NOT fixing your problem, it's masking it.

Without seeing the horse, being able to read him in the situations where he will flip his head, I can only offer some ideas. When horses flip their heads like that usually that is a sign of confidence and/or dominance. Does he get impulsive during exciting activities? Do you hold him back or have constant contact on his mouth? If you do then that might play a big part in this issue. If you don't, it might just be that he is excited and exhuberant and is wanting to play. Arabs can have a tendency to be that way. Also, what kind of bit are you using? Sometimes horses will toss their heads if they don't like the bit. When he does flip his head are his ears back? Does his attitude seem negative?

I assume you have checked your saddle to make sure it fits properly. Have you had him looked at by a chiropractor? If not that might be worth a visit, just to make sure.

Again, without seeing the situation it's hard to say. I have a couple more ideas floating around in my head but they would depend on his emotional and mental state while he's doing the head flipping.


His saddle has indeed been fitted numerous times, as he loses weight, loses/gains muscle etc. He has also had the chiro out numerous times, when we got him one shoulder was quite bad due to an injury when he was younger, but he is now pain free.

In regards to the bit, I use a simple eggbut bridoon. I have tried him in many bits, including a French link, and the French link vs. the single joint did not make a difference in regards to the head flipping. I don’t use a drop noseband, in fact normally I ride minus any noseband.

You are correct, the martingale masks the problem, but when other people ride him the head flipping becomes dangerous, as he can quite easily smack someone in the head, and when his head is flipped up you have no control via the bit. As he has gotten older, he has gotten a little better, and mostly I ride him without the martingale/head check (I have both) Unless I am at a big competition.

I don’t have constant contact as he is very responsive to leg and a neck rein, plus by now he knows most of the games we do off by heart. Most of the time I have him on a loose rein, and the head flipping occurs when I take up the contact to ask him to stop. His stop is fine in most other situations, and If I stop him slowly using circles it doesn’t happen, but in mounted games you often need to stop and turn around quickly to fix a mistake. His attitude doesn’t seem to change much, I think it is more a protest about stopping, he wants to keep running!

Thanks for replying to this, I’m finding this very interesting.

P.S. I do know that it is often an Arab trait, and he does flip his head around and wave his head around in the paddock. Like I said, personally I hardly ever ride him in a martingale anymore, as I have learnt the signs when he is about to flip his head, and am able to combat it, but other people ride him who don’t know him as well. (I have had him for seven years)
     
    12-17-2008, 07:47 PM
  #37
Foal
The main difference?
NH'ers don't hit their horses but "traditional" trainers do...no wait that's not right.
Um...only NH'ers have true bonds with their horses...no that's wrong too.

Oh yeah, a horse can be ruined using "traditional training" and the trainer will get the bad rap, not the method, but if NH is practiced falsely and a horse is messed up, Natural Horsemanship, not the "trainer", gets the bad rap.
     
    12-17-2008, 07:52 PM
  #38
Trained
Quote:
but if NH is practiced falsely and a horse is messed up, Natural Horsemanship, not the "trainer", gets the bad rap.
That is very true.
     
    12-18-2008, 01:01 AM
  #39
Started
[quote=wild_spot;213467 [COLOR=black]I think part of the problem is that he is a very ‘mouthy’ horse to begin with, he will mouth anything, saddles left out, his leadrope, etc. I just make sure I don’t leave saddles or anything of value out near him, but apart from that unless he’s hurting someone I let him be, as he is just being curious. What would be your approach to the generally ‘mouthy’ horse, would you view it as a problem with a source, or just another facet of behaviour?[/COLOR]

Horses with his kind of personality are VERY mouthy. They investigate everything with their mouths. My warmblood is mouthy, he likes to chew the lead rope, pick up things and fling them about, pull things over.....and he loves food! He also has a very busy mind, always plotting and trying to be a step ahead of me. So I always have interesting and challenging things for him to do to exercise his mind. For these kinds of horses exercise for the mind is far more important than exercise for his body. These horses NEED mental stimulation otherwise the negative behavior will be worse. I do not view mouthiness as a problem. It's just who the horse is. And if I tell him off for being who he is how can he ever trust or respect me? I have to respect who he is innately BUT channel that energy into something constructive. Teach him to pick up things for you. Put that curiosity and natural talent he is showing you to good use. Be creative. Like with my warmblood, he is getting the hang now of handing me my grooming bag. And he is also very animated with his front legs, naturally, so I took that talent and gave it a job. He's doing a beginner version of the spanish walk now and he LOVES it! Take what the horse naturally has and is giving to you and put it to good use, don't supress it.

In regards to the bit, I use a simple eggbut bridoon. I have tried him in many bits, including a French link, and the French link vs. the single joint did not make a difference in regards to the head flipping. I don’t use a drop noseband, in fact normally I ride minus any noseband.

You are correct, the martingale masks the problem, but when other people ride him the head flipping becomes dangerous, as he can quite easily smack someone in the head, and when his head is flipped up you have no control via the bit. As he has gotten older, he has gotten a little better, and mostly I ride him without the martingale/head check (I have both) Unless I am at a big competition.

I don’t have constant contact as he is very responsive to leg and a neck rein, plus by now he knows most of the games we do off by heart. Most of the time I have him on a loose rein, and the head flipping occurs when I take up the contact to ask him to stop. His stop is fine in most other situations, and If I stop him slowly using circles it doesn’t happen, but in mounted games you often need to stop and turn around quickly to fix a mistake. His attitude doesn’t seem to change much, I think it is more a protest about stopping, he wants to keep running!

Okay, a couple things might be going on here. One, this horse has a lot of energy and he isn't able to use it. Meaning you are asking him to go slower when really he needs to move his feet. Instead of bolting, etc. his displaced behavior comes out in his head. So, if you feel frisky enough, when he gets excited take that energy and USE IT! Say, "You want to move? Me too!" Let him move out, give him something to do with that energy though. Do lots of patterns, changes of direction, etc. to get his mind. There is a difference between exhuberant and impulsive. So make sure that he is only exhuberant, not impulsive. If he is impulsive put him on a circle until he relaxes. Second, the bit might be a big cause of the head flipping. For a horse with his personality, they usually like a bit that has maximum tongue relief. Thet feel less trapped in the front end. Are you familiar with Myler bits? If not I would look into those with maximum tongue relief. Horses with this kind of personality can exhibit signs like head tossing, opening their mouths, chomping on the bit, reefing on the reins, tongue over the bit, etc. if they don't have enough tongue relief. One last thing. When you stop your horse, try this technique. Pick up contact and stop your body first. Then take one rein and lift it STRAIGHT UP, like an elevator. Do not pull back. With your other rein, have a steady yet light contact. When your horse stops release the reins. So one rein goes up, the other stays. This is called a suspension rein because it will help lift the horse's front end and put him on his butt. Also, this will feel better to the horse because you aren't pulling on him, you are lifting him. When he flips his head when you try to stop him, that is him telling you "No! I don't want to and get out of my mouth!" I say "I don't want to" because it sounds like he has a lot of energy and wants to use it. Now, if he doesn't stop, with your lifted rein you can bounce the rein up and down to create rhythmic pressure to back up your steady pressure. Don't yank or jerk, just boucne the rein a little to say "Hey, listen up." Reward the slightest try. Remember you are teaching him. I LOVE this technique, I use it on both my horses and every horse I ride. It really gets the horse soft and soon they let go of a lot of brace in their jaw because they know I'm not going to pull on them. When you pull on your horse you create instant brace and you invite a fight. This is exactly what we want to prevent.
     
    12-18-2008, 06:32 PM
  #40
Trained
Quote:
Horses with his kind of personality are VERY mouthy. They investigate everything with their mouths. My warmblood is mouthy, he likes to chew the lead rope, pick up things and fling them about, pull things over.....and he loves food! He also has a very busy mind, always plotting and trying to be a step ahead of me. So I always have interesting and challenging things for him to do to exercise his mind. For these kinds of horses exercise for the mind is far more important than exercise for his body. These horses NEED mental stimulation otherwise the negative behavior will be worse. I do not view mouthiness as a problem. It's just who the horse is. And if I tell him off for being who he is how can he ever trust or respect me? I have to respect who he is innately BUT channel that energy into something constructive. Teach him to pick up things for you. Put that curiosity and natural talent he is showing you to good use. Be creative. Like with my warmblood, he is getting the hang now of handing me my grooming bag. And he is also very animated with his front legs, naturally, so I took that talent and gave it a job. He's doing a beginner version of the spanish walk now and he LOVES it! Take what the horse naturally has and is giving to you and put it to good use, don't supress it.
Yep, he sure does love food... he's a fatty! I don't mind his general mouthiness, just nipping, which he has now quit. I love the sound of the spanish walk/picking up tricks you are doing with your warmblood, sounds awesome :]

Quote:
Okay, a couple things might be going on here. One, this horse has a lot of energy and he isn't able to use it. Meaning you are asking him to go slower when really he needs to move his feet. Instead of bolting, etc. his displaced behavior comes out in his head. So, if you feel frisky enough, when he gets excited take that energy and USE IT! Say, "You want to move? Me too!" Let him move out, give him something to do with that energy though. Do lots of patterns, changes of direction, etc. to get his mind. There is a difference between exhuberant and impulsive. So make sure that he is only exhuberant, not impulsive. If he is impulsive put him on a circle until he relaxes. Second, the bit might be a big cause of the head flipping. For a horse with his personality, they usually like a bit that has maximum tongue relief. Thet feel less trapped in the front end. Are you familiar with Myler bits? If not I would look into those with maximum tongue relief. Horses with this kind of personality can exhibit signs like head tossing, opening their mouths, chomping on the bit, reefing on the reins, tongue over the bit, etc. if they don't have enough tongue relief. One last thing. When you stop your horse, try this technique. Pick up contact and stop your body first. Then take one rein and lift it STRAIGHT UP, like an elevator. Do not pull back. With your other rein, have a steady yet light contact. When your horse stops release the reins. So one rein goes up, the other stays. This is called a suspension rein because it will help lift the horse's front end and put him on his butt. Also, this will feel better to the horse because you aren't pulling on him, you are lifting him. When he flips his head when you try to stop him, that is him telling you "No! I don't want to and get out of my mouth!" I say "I don't want to" because it sounds like he has a lot of energy and wants to use it. Now, if he doesn't stop, with your lifted rein you can bounce the rein up and down to create rhythmic pressure to back up your steady pressure. Don't yank or jerk, just boucne the rein a little to say "Hey, listen up." Reward the slightest try. Remember you are teaching him. I LOVE this technique, I use it on both my horses and every horse I ride. It really gets the horse soft and soon they let go of a lot of brace in their jaw because they know I'm not going to pull on them. When you pull on your horse you create instant brace and you invite a fight. This is exactly what we want to prevent.
In regards to the lots of energy thing, he is like an energiser bunny, he is never tired. However, If he feels like he wants to use it, I usually let him. I must say, I like going fast as much as he does :] We do lots fo sporting/mounted games, so we are often going fast through patterns etc. When he gets bored with one pattern, i'll thinkof a new way to ride it, for example at the moment i'm teaching him a race we know very well, 3 mug, but inside out. It saves time in a competition, and is very different so he really has to think about it. Between competitions we trail ride for fitness, and we will often bend through trees, jump logs, and we do race a bit :] So I don't think it's misplaced energy.

When I ask him to stop, I normally keep one rein firm and pull release with the other, I never straight pull as he just goes beauty! And pulls right back, lol. If he knows we are going to stop, for examply a certain spot in a race, he stops without the head flip. I think it is more when he thinks he knows better, 'mum, were not supposed to stop here!' is when he gets the flip happening.

I do know of myler bits, I used one on my old horse who had huge bit problems, pulling, lugging and tavelling with his mouth open. I haven't tried one on Wildey because apart from the head flip he goes evry well in his current bit, however it may be worth a try. I might have to wait till after christmas though, i'm broke and they are pricey!
     

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