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Natural H'ship, No Way ! (video)

This is a discussion on Natural H'ship, No Way ! (video) within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Toah hatch bad trainer
  • Toah hatch horsemanship

 
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    07-14-2011, 05:16 AM
  #11
Foal
I understand what they guy is trying to do....

Google Toah Hatch he works with rescues in arizona...

I think this is yellow editing on someones part.... i'd like to see more of the part where the bay is saddled and he is moving it out of his space.

Either he made someone mad or something he was on extreme mustang makeover.

The flank rope he's ruining that horses career in PRCA rough stock events, take notice he has flank rope on and it's jumping the barrels... i'm going to take this video with a grain of salt untill I see more of this guy.
     
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    07-14-2011, 07:47 AM
  #12
Showing
I've seen live demonstration by Cris Cox using the rope around the belly on bucker. He definitely did a very good job with it, the whole thing was done very calm, horse didn't look POed, and he got on horse right after that and horse didn't even try to buck. However he also said there has to be perfect timing and this method is NOT for the beginner (or someone unfamiliar with it).
     
    07-15-2011, 04:58 AM
  #13
Foal
[QUOTE=ledge;1096420]I understand what they guy is trying to do....

Google Toah Hatch he works with rescues in arizona...

I think this is yellow editing on someones part.... QUOTE]

Can you explain what "yellow editing" is please ? Thanks
I googled him myself and he no longer works for the Love Shack Rescue anymore. My guess is from this display of training is the reason, but then that's just my opinion I don't know for sure.
     
    07-15-2011, 06:24 AM
  #14
Trained
I would like to know why the OP refers to this as NH? Because they don't like NH and also don't like this training technique? Or perhaps because if you put NH in the title more people may read it and react? Like it or not, this technique works. See above posts.

I looked up Toah Hatch, and in the google matches I came up with it never refers to him as an NH trainer! He was trained by his Grandfather who was a roping trainer.

I am in favor of good horsemanship (whether it comes under the guise of NH or not), I am also NOT a fan of bad, NH or not. But I do not label something NH just because it might get a reaction on a forum, since it is such an emottional topic.
     
    07-15-2011, 08:41 AM
  #15
Yearling
It definitely works! I've had a few knuckleheads comment that I was just "making them worse" or "teaching them how to buck" when using this trick. So anymore I won't even do it when people are around. The truth is, it makes the first ride much safer and works wonders on old horses that are flanky. We've broke lots of SB and BB horses that didn't buck well enough and always used this technique. My wife won't get on a horse unless I've done this to them. You DO have to be responsible with it or you'll get them hurt.
     
    07-16-2011, 04:01 PM
  #16
Super Moderator
This tactic is completely unnecessary if a trainer introduces a girth and then a saddle slowly, does not scare a horse with it and does not let the horse learn to buck as his reaction to a girth and a rider.

But, when a horse has already learned how to buck and has gotten quite good a bucking people off, this method is very effective in teaching him 'after the fact' that bucking is not a pleasant trip for him.

Ray Hunt was the first person I saw using this method and as far as I know, he only used it on spoiled horses that already had a bucking problem. I believe that is the same with the modern clinicians that I have watched. Once a horse has learned to unload riders, you have to do something to 'break the cycle' or you have an unsafe bronc that bucks a rider off anytime it suits them better than being ridden.

When I used to get in so many spoiled horses to retrain for the public, I did this to the confirmed buckers. Without some good reason to quit bucking, they were headed for the slaughter plant anyway, so I guess it beat the alternative. Two that it did not work on headed to the PRCA (RCA back then) rodeo string and one of those was still bucking 10 years later. Most buckers just buck hard enough to get their average riders of but not hard enough to get paid for it.

Like all other 'pressure and release' techniques, it requires perfect timing. You pull on the flank rope as long as the horse is bucking and kicking and the instant he quits and just runs, you quit pulling. You have to do this several times on confirmed buckers. You do it every time you saddle them up for a while. You can give it up when they give it up. When you saddle them up fresh and they just let you longe them by the flank rope without bucking or kicking, they are usually done with it.

BTW, 'yellow editing' is when someone with an agenda edits out bits and pieces of several tapes to make someone look bad. This is something that HSUS and PETA are very good at doing. You can make anyone and anything look very bad if you take bits and pieces and put them together with an agenda.
     
    07-17-2011, 01:41 PM
  #17
Foal
Exactly Cherie,

I introduce the flank with the one clinton item I use his progress string that goes on his golf club stick to tie around the flanks to get them used to it.


As for NH title... its a buzz word a lot use to sell their training, they add it to their business cards to get more business, not that they have changed their style of training.
     
    07-17-2011, 02:48 PM
  #18
Showing
I agree with Horsesdontlie, franknbeans, and cherie. There is nothing wrong with the method of the rope around the flank (or even around the butt and under the tail), you just have to know how to properly use it for it to be effective. That is not something I would do on a typical young horse because I don't want them to buck even once if I can avoid it. However, on those that are very willing to buck, it works.

In that video, it is really hard to see enough to make a final judgement one way or the other. I've dealt with some horses that had been spoiled and they would react to a regular saddling much like this horse did to the flank rope; they would start bucking and come right toward you because that is what they'd been taught. If you didn't either get yourself out of the way fast enough or get them away from you, they were perfectly content to just buck right over the top of you. That may be the type of horse he's dealing with, we don't know.

It is yellow editing done by someone just looking for a "OMG" reaction from people who don't know better. The fact is, anyone with a lick of sense knows that you can't tell anything about someone's training from a video of 1-5 second clips strung together. Sometimes it gets dramatic and everything doesn't always look all smooth and perfect.
     
    07-17-2011, 02:52 PM
  #19
Foal
I forgot to mention the rope under the tail.... I've seen a few Roper's have wrecks when the rope got under the tail.

I like to do the flank rope sadly though it will ruin their career as a bronc for the rodeo.
     
    07-17-2011, 02:54 PM
  #20
Green Broke
I'm not for or against NH, I use some techniques myself but not all. I usually like to check out different techniques, trainers, etc... I take what works for me and my horse and leave the rest behind.

I adore my horse. We all have recently stopped calling him green, and he has been holding his own at local "schooling" shows. That said....If I tried ANY of the above techniques on him....especially the one with the rope around the flanks... he would act much worse than that horse and I would probably get my head kicked in! I have no clue what those techniques were supposed to train the horse to do??????
     

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