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Need advice about persuaders

This is a discussion on Need advice about persuaders within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        06-10-2013, 06:11 PM
      #21
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Saranda    
    SR, show me a horse who willingly puts his lip in a twitch, and maybe I shall change my thoughts about it being a method of force. However, I'm not going to argue, I just believe that if a procedure of grooming has to be done with a twitch, then maybe the handler should think over the basics, instead of trying to make a horse behave by twitching him. And I have the rights to believe in this, as well as you have your rights to believe in what's best. :)
    First, "SR" (which usually stands for Speed Racer here) has not even posted on this thread, so, perhaps you were referring to Palomines post? (which I happen to agree with 10000%). Twitches have their place, and, as has been stated, when properly used are hardly "brute force". From your post I am guessing that you believe we should only do what a horse will do willingly? Really? Do you ever go left when your speshul horsey want to go right? That could be construed as "forcing" it.......Do you make it leave the comfy barn when it doesn't want to? Horses (and people) do things every day that they do not necessarily WANT to do, and really do reluctantly, not really willingly.

    NH can be carried too extremes. Just sayin'.
    smrobs, Prinella, Evansk and 2 others like this.
         
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        06-10-2013, 11:27 PM
      #22
    Banned
    Thanks for the advice.The twitch was used because she was not willing to be submissive to getting her ears trimmed. A lot of Tennessee Walkers have their ear hairs trimmed and the hair on the top of their head as well.She got shoes put on her for the first time today and she had to be given Acepromazine which is a tranquilizer that calms a horse down.She responded very well to the tranquilizer.She has to have new shoes in a couple of months.I will have a good show horse.She does have a beautiful gait called the running walk.Once again thank you for the advice.
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        06-10-2013, 11:38 PM
      #23
    Trained
    I have had to show groom a lot of horses, many of whom were not mine and that I may not have seen until they walked into the stocks or cross ties. I always kept a lip chain in my front pocket and a twitch in my back pocket. Like Cherie, I prefer a wooden handle with a piece of rope in a circle, but the chain twitch or even the so called "humane or one person" twitch will work in a pinch. I'll even ear one if I have to, because I've got a job to do, very little time to do it (right before a show) and no desire to get hurt, maimed or killed.

    At a show, I can't tranq the horse, it will fail a drug test. Frequently I have no idea how or if the horse has been well trained to accept the clippers anywhere, let alone near the ears. I'm real considerate about clipping ears, I put 'puffs' down inside the ear canal to keep the noise down and hair out, and I'll try to trim with my quietest, smallest pair of clippers. I'll give it 2 or 3 tries before I go to the lip chain, a couple more before I go to the twitch and a couple more before I'll have someone come ear the horse while I get the job done quickly.

    I prefer the lip chain because if the horse acts up, it can be tightened and if the horse stops the bad behavior it can be loosened much quicker than a twitch. That way they get pressure/release based on their behavior and can learn from it.

    I will always TRY to complete the job, but I also reserve the right to refuse to handle an ill trained or dangerous horse. I'm showing too and I'm wasting my money if I get hurt.
    Cherie, waresbear and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        06-11-2013, 05:59 AM
      #24
    Trained
    OP-your horse should not need to be aced to have her feet done. Plain and simple. You should have her so that you can handle her feet by now......I am not sure who is advising you, but I am beginning to wonder.
    NdAppy and EvilHorseOfDoom like this.
         
        06-11-2013, 06:31 AM
      #25
    Super Moderator
    Missed that one, frankbeans, thanks - don't know where from I got to answering SR. :)

    As for all of this -

    Quote:
    From your post I am guessing that you believe we should only do what a horse will do willingly? Really? Do you ever go left when your speshul horsey want to go right? That could be construed as "forcing" it.......Do you make it leave the comfy barn when it doesn't want to? Horses (and people) do things every day that they do not necessarily WANT to do, and really do reluctantly, not really willingly.
    Never said any of that and no need to get snarky - I can communicate in an adult manner very well, but can you?

    But I still consider and will consider twitch a forceful method, that can have its' place (medical procedures, emergencies, etc.), but for a grooming procedure? Really? This is, after all, the NH section, and I stand for NH values - not rainbow farts and butterflies, but for letting a horse understand a problematic situation, not just trying to push him through in a faster and a seemingly more convenient (for the handler) way.

    Just so that you know, my speshul horsey (an extremely dominant wannabe stud) would have killed me by know if I just let everything go his way. :)
    EvilHorseOfDoom likes this.
         
        06-11-2013, 07:28 AM
      #26
    Foal
    My vet used a twitch on my colt last month when he was about to be gelded. I guess the poor boy had a sense of foreboding because he suddenly began behaving like a brat as he was about to be sedated, despite having not reacted to injections prior. In the vet's professional hands, the twitch was invaluable and the administration of necessary drugs was over in seconds.

    I must confess, I am increasingly confused by the OP's posts. I still don't understand why the horse required its ear hair to be trimmed. It's not as if the horse was going to a show. So why the unnecessary trauma?

    It takes time and patience to desensitize a young horse to all the procedures it will be expected to accept as part of its husbandry. This doesn't seem to be happening for this yearling.

    Case in point, sedating for shoeing. Unless this horse has issues with his/her feet, why shoe at all at this age? Prepare over time for shoeing by all means, pick up the feet, tap gently with a hammer, etc, but all hooves need at this age is a trim to keep them in shape.

    Stating that she doen't want to be "throwed again" suggests that the OP has been onboard, despite everyone on this forum advising that the horse is very underweight and too young to begin training.

    Either the OP is being badly advised, or she does not seem to have much say with regard to how her horse is taken care of.

    Confused, very confused.
    Saranda and EvilHorseOfDoom like this.
         
        06-11-2013, 08:19 AM
      #27
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians    
    I have had to show groom a lot of horses, many of whom were not mine and that I may not have seen until they walked into the stocks or cross ties. I always kept a lip chain in my front pocket and a twitch in my back pocket. Like Cherie, I prefer a wooden handle with a piece of rope in a circle, but the chain twitch or even the so called "humane or one person" twitch will work in a pinch. I'll even ear one if I have to, because I've got a job to do, very little time to do it (right before a show) and no desire to get hurt, maimed or killed.

    At a show, I can't tranq the horse, it will fail a drug test. Frequently I have no idea how or if the horse has been well trained to accept the clippers anywhere, let alone near the ears. I'm real considerate about clipping ears, I put 'puffs' down inside the ear canal to keep the noise down and hair out, and I'll try to trim with my quietest, smallest pair of clippers. I'll give it 2 or 3 tries before I go to the lip chain, a couple more before I go to the twitch and a couple more before I'll have someone come ear the horse while I get the job done quickly.

    I prefer the lip chain because if the horse acts up, it can be tightened and if the horse stops the bad behavior it can be loosened much quicker than a twitch. That way they get pressure/release based on their behavior and can learn from it.

    I will always TRY to complete the job, but I also reserve the right to refuse to handle an ill trained or dangerous horse. I'm showing too and I'm wasting my money if I get hurt.
    I used to be a show groom too and I also used to clip horses for a side job, twitching was just part of the job. Although I find that as a person gets more proficient with any 'uncomfortable' grooming task the better you become at doing it without or little discomfort to the horse and you get very good at judging how a horse is going to react.....nothing like being underneath an explosive horse clipping its legs while the owner is feeding it cookies!!!!
    franknbeans and waresbear like this.
         
        06-11-2013, 09:32 AM
      #28
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
    I used to be a show groom too and I also used to clip horses for a side job, twitching was just part of the job. Although I find that as a person gets more proficient with any 'uncomfortable' grooming task the better you become at doing it without or little discomfort to the horse and you get very good at judging how a horse is going to react.....nothing like being underneath an explosive horse clipping its legs while the owner is feeding it cookies!!!!
    AAAAYYYY-men to that! Though, if it will distract a horse well enough to make it behave while I'm doing my thing on it, I'm all FOR cookies! Bribes work and I use them when I need to.
    waresbear and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        06-11-2013, 09:37 AM
      #29
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by franknbeans    
    OP-your horse should not need to be aced to have her feet done. Plain and simple. You should have her so that you can handle her feet by now......I am not sure who is advising you, but I am beginning to wonder.
    I agree, no the horse shouldn't need to be tranq'd to have her feet done by now, but I've had a couple that we've had to do it to. One was my Arab stallion who had gotten an injury that was very painful and even after things healed, he was VERY reactive to having that foot handled. We tranq'd him a couple of times so that he got it through his head that the foot no longer hurt to be handled and POOF, perfect horse again. Then I sent him off to be saddle broke and he came home a freakin' TERROR for the farrier. I don't know what the trainer's farrier did to him but it must have been something I'd have KILLED that farrier for, this time it took 4 times with the tranq to get him back to being a good boy. Today.......pssssht! He's 8 years old and the easiest horse on the place to handle, feet, ears and all.

    So, I'm wondering if the OP bought an unhandled yearling horse, is a beginner herself and maybe getting some questionable advice OR did she just get suckered when she bought the horse?
         
        06-11-2013, 09:38 AM
      #30
    Banned
    I wanted my horse to look good and prepare her for the future is the reason why I had her ears trimmed.She is now 2 years old she's officially a filly.She had a birthday last week and she is active.She is in her terrible twos just like a kid when they cry all the time,get into everything and vice versa.The earlier I get her trained the better off we both will be.My friend didn't even know how far away a horse can hear he said "A horse can hear 20 mile" I said "No they can hear things from a mile away".My friend seems to know some about horses but not enough to train one because answered my question incorrectly.
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