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Parelli Natural Horsemanship.

This is a discussion on Parelli Natural Horsemanship. within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        10-04-2013, 10:59 PM
      #21
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Nokotaheaven    
    I'd think a great coach would also be able to teach the horse just as well as the owner :)

    Not so. A person who can teach a horse deals with an animal with a very straightforward understanding of the world, and who is very 'honest'. What you see is what you get. Horses don't have a lot of preconcieved notions, just their past experience and their instincts. Once you get through that, you "have" them. They don't get offended if told the truth.

    People have all kinds of barriers to understanding (the students) and the teacher may be able to communicate well with physical feel, which to a horse is as clear as glass, but most humans need words, and not all coaches are good with words.
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        10-05-2013, 12:10 AM
      #22
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KylieHuitema    
    Okay, this thread is already taking a turn towards what I believe the OP wasn't going for. Why does every single Parelli thread have negativity on it, when some don't even start with it? The OP was sharing her positive experience and people are already bringing negativity on it. Smh.

    Because more often than not, riders who find Parelli are in the earlier stages of their journeys with horses, and the Parelli program seems to be quite different, and promise things that sound very exciting and enticing. They are! And to someone new to horses, it might seem as if what PP is showing is somehow unique and a gateway to a new and exciting connection with the horse, something they did not realize was possible. AND, critical to PP as opposed to many other trainers, he has made a very good system of breaking down the training into "moves", with names that make them appealing, and each can be done seperately from teh other, so that teh person feels a lot of "success" , being able to accomplish the Squeeze game, or some other named step.

    The thing is, they then feel so pleased with that , that they want to revel in it, and give Parelli credit, as if he , alone, really knows how to train horses and the games are something new, that he discovered and shared with them.
    People who have had a bit more time with horses start to see the universialit of horse training. That PP did not invent any of the things he teaches (something he himself often is clear to admit).
    They know that the first things you learn are just that, the first, and that you should not assume that it's the end, that's it's all you'll need to know, which is an attitude I have felt from many Parelli folks. Like they've found El Dorado. If , after some years of learning and trying different things, you still feel that Parellis is the best, that's great, but don't assume you've found it, when you haven't even looked very far.

    The other thing that brings out negativity from experienced hrose people toward Parellis is that because the program lays things out in a step by step approach, so very comprehensible and achievable by begginers, it doesn't always explain WHY you do a certain thing the way you do, and what to look for when doing it to show that you are improving your horse, training him to be a better mount People end up spending SO much time focussing on how THEY do such and such a step, they forget to watch what their hrose is doing, and HOW HE is doing it.
    So, they have him back up off the wiggle, many many times, but how did he back up? They don't really notice, nor care. THEY completed the task, and getting up the steps is what matters, not whether or not your horse is changing for the better, or . . .worse. And done poorly , which is what happens when folks have tunnel vision and are just thinking, "now I wiggle three times, then wave the stick three times , then . . " , like following the instructions in a recipe. They completely lose track of the hrose, and the horse makes a very poor response to their wiggle, but they accept that. NExt time, it takes that much more "wiggling" to get the same poor response. Dulling down. And so on. That is not training a horse up, it's training them down.
    Unfortunately, the very begginner crowd that finds the step by step process "doable" does not know what the steps are meant to achieve and where they are going, and they often end up training a hrose that is dull, pushy and bored.

    That's why many people who have seen Parelli horses , or even done it some and then moved on, can have a negative attitude.

    If it were done correctly, with help from a good trainer who keeps you focussed on the horse, his response and what you are working toward, it can be successful. I have seen it.
         
        10-05-2013, 03:56 AM
      #23
    Started
    Tinyliny, thanks for the good points!

    PNH is a phenomenon that requires a lot of insight into people & their motivations: one must recognize cultishness, money, etc. PLUS a newbie to horses can't properly assess the program because they're blank slates who don't understand horses & how to partner them for their wellbeing.

    Tinyliny, your words about noting the effect that your program has upon the HORSE are appreciated! The HORSE is the best teacher of all things horse.

    I'm saddened to see cultic nonsense in PNH, because it can provide a great horsemanship foundation.
         
        10-05-2013, 08:56 AM
      #24
    Showing
    Pat Parelli is probably one of the first trainers to explain why and set up a sequence of training to promote success. Clinton Anderson is another who explains the whys. When one understands the why then the various steps make more sense. At one time trainers/coaches said "Do this" with no explanation, just do it.
    Nokotaheaven and Godgirl like this.
         
        10-05-2013, 11:24 AM
      #25
    Trained
    Actually, I just read a book on training horses written in the 30s, and he gave explanations for why something was a good training exercise or principle. What he did NOT do is break everything down into small steps, or say do A then B then C. He assumed someone trying to train a horse already knew enough about horses to skip that sort of thing, since most people in the 30s would not have tried training a horse if they knew almost nothing about horses.

    That is what rubs me wrong about many DVD trainers. If you know so little about horses that you have to think in terms of "games" with cute names, then you probably are not ready to train a horse. What you need is not a series of DVDs, but a friend who has trained horses before. And in our more urbanized horse world, that friend may not exist...so people have their DVD friend help them.

    With small goals, that is fine. Chris Irwin used to have hundreds of short videos on Statelinetack (long gone now, unhappily) that were very helpful to me. I have some DVDs from Larry Trocha. The ones I bought covered limited goals - like getting a better stop from a horse, or how to deal with a horse who does X.

    However, any program of horse training depends heavily on the trainer being able to read his horse. As a newbie to horses, I hired a trainer 3 times to work with 3 horses. I spend a ton of money - don't try to save money when you buy a horse, because you'll pay more later - and spent maybe 120-150 hours watching her and sometimes doing some steps with her supervision. After 5+ years with my horses, and having HAD help from a pro, I feel comfortable training small things. But there is no way I could buy a 2 year old or unbroken 7 year old and train them to ride. If I tried, I would probably ruin the horse.

    This is a Parelli thread in the NH section, and I have do desire to bash him - at least, not in the NH subsection. If the OP and others are learning helpful things from him, I wish them well. I would ask the Parelli followers to keep an open mind, and remember that folks have trained horses with kindness and respect for hundreds of years. Not everyone, but some have always done so.

    The picture below is one of my favorite pictures of a horse. It was taken in World War 1, not too far from the front lines. In all probability, the man came from the city and had nothing to do with horses before joining the Army. In the madness and suffering of World War, men and their horses often became the emotional support each needed to keep going in a world filled with horror.


         
        10-05-2013, 12:03 PM
      #26
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    Because more often than not, riders who find Parelli are in the earlier stages of their journeys with horses, and the Parelli program seems to be quite different, and promise things that sound very exciting and enticing. They are! And to someone new to horses, it might seem as if what PP is showing is somehow unique and a gateway to a new and exciting connection with the horse, something they did not realize was possible. AND, critical to PP as opposed to many other trainers, he has made a very good system of breaking down the training into "moves", with names that make them appealing, and each can be done seperately from teh other, so that teh person feels a lot of "success" , being able to accomplish the Squeeze game, or some other named step.

    The thing is, they then feel so pleased with that , that they want to revel in it, and give Parelli credit, as if he , alone, really knows how to train horses and the games are something new, that he discovered and shared with them.
    People who have had a bit more time with horses start to see the universialit of horse training. That PP did not invent any of the things he teaches (something he himself often is clear to admit).
    They know that the first things you learn are just that, the first, and that you should not assume that it's the end, that's it's all you'll need to know, which is an attitude I have felt from many Parelli folks. Like they've found El Dorado. If , after some years of learning and trying different things, you still feel that Parellis is the best, that's great, but don't assume you've found it, when you haven't even looked very far.

    The other thing that brings out negativity from experienced hrose people toward Parellis is that because the program lays things out in a step by step approach, so very comprehensible and achievable by begginers, it doesn't always explain WHY you do a certain thing the way you do, and what to look for when doing it to show that you are improving your horse, training him to be a better mount People end up spending SO much time focussing on how THEY do such and such a step, they forget to watch what their hrose is doing, and HOW HE is doing it.
    So, they have him back up off the wiggle, many many times, but how did he back up? They don't really notice, nor care. THEY completed the task, and getting up the steps is what matters, not whether or not your horse is changing for the better, or . . .worse. And done poorly , which is what happens when folks have tunnel vision and are just thinking, "now I wiggle three times, then wave the stick three times , then . . " , like following the instructions in a recipe. They completely lose track of the hrose, and the horse makes a very poor response to their wiggle, but they accept that. NExt time, it takes that much more "wiggling" to get the same poor response. Dulling down. And so on. That is not training a horse up, it's training them down.
    Unfortunately, the very begginner crowd that finds the step by step process "doable" does not know what the steps are meant to achieve and where they are going, and they often end up training a hrose that is dull, pushy and bored.

    That's why many people who have seen Parelli horses , or even done it some and then moved on, can have a negative attitude.

    If it were done correctly, with help from a good trainer who keeps you focussed on the horse, his response and what you are working toward, it can be successful. I have seen it.
    Perfect awesomeness!!!! That's how I started, and ended!.....
         
        10-05-2013, 12:27 PM
      #27
    Super Moderator
    Bsms - Though many would agree that people who need such simplistic laid out training methods such as given by PP and similar should not be training horses in the first place the fact is there are an increasing number of people that do fit into this category -
    Yes it would be better if they bought perfect ready trained horses but once they've got them its a bit too late - other than they dump them back on the open market - using these video trainers can sometimes be the only option for them
    I would rather someone seeks out the help of a hands on trainer but they can charge some hefty fees and from experience they aren't all as good in real life as they appear on paper.
    Oldhorselady likes this.
         
        10-05-2013, 12:40 PM
      #28
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northern    
    Tinyliny, thanks for the good points!

    PNH is a phenomenon that requires a lot of insight into people & their motivations: one must recognize cultishness, money, etc. PLUS a newbie to horses can't properly assess the program because they're blank slates who don't understand horses & how to partner them for their wellbeing.

    Tinyliny, your words about noting the effect that your program has upon the HORSE are appreciated! The HORSE is the best teacher of all things horse.

    I'm saddened to see cultic nonsense in PNH, because it can provide a great horsemanship foundation.



    I remember the first time I saw a video on PNH, I was enthralled. I still do see some folks do it correctly and it's interesting to watch and pleasing to see the positive relationship between them and the horse. But, when I see it done poorly, I see a frustrated horse and a handler whose pretty oblivious to them being the source of the frustration. But, you know, that comment can be applied to most any form of training.
    Oldhorselady and Nokotaheaven like this.
         
        10-11-2013, 06:13 PM
      #29
    Foal
    So I have arrived in Maryland and I am super excited for tomorrow!!!!!!!!
    Captain Evil likes this.
         
        10-11-2013, 06:42 PM
      #30
    Trained
    Awesome godgirl!

    I don't 'do' parelli, but I think there is something to be learned from it. I'm glad it works for you and your horse :)
    Posted via Mobile Device
    Godgirl likes this.
         

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