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Parelli or not?

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  • Horse shoving with noses pat parelli
  • Parelli natural horsemanship controversy

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    03-12-2012, 05:44 PM
  #191
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner    
First the boss and the leader are one in the same.I will NEVER agree with you on this. I am the leader. If I need to I will make sure they know this the same way a lead mare will make the others know she is lead mare. You sould see what my Dun It mare does to the other mares when they get out of line. She is boss and they all know it and if at some point they forget she reminds them BIG TIME. Good for her. She's a horse, your not.

Also debating is simple explaning your side with facts to why your point of veiw is correct. There is no differance. We are debating. We are taking out side and backing it with facts. You have yet to show any facts as to your side. You just keep saying that is a 2 way street and we need to let them be and live that that horse so not like to work. You have yet to back any of that up with any facts yet I and the other have back up what we are saying with facts. Here is one for you. My horses are bred to work. They have been bred to work for generations.Thats YOUR opinion. That's what you believe. OBVIOUSLY they have been bred for generations, but it shouldn't be to serve humans. They LOVE to do that work. They show me by how they react to the trailer being loaded up that they come running when they see the bridle and saddle come out. How they do their job. It shows me they love it. The fact that it comes naturnal to them shows me they are bred for it just like my Golden is bred to be a water and land retriever and she loves it. She is good at it and she is ALWAYS ready to go to work.
I think we have all exhausted this subject enough and can agree to disagree. I will never agree with you and you will never agree with me.
     
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    03-12-2012, 05:46 PM
  #192
Showing
Emily, if you think horses aren't meant to serve humans, why do you ride yours? Honest question.
     
    03-12-2012, 05:52 PM
  #193
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyRosie    
Have you read ANY of my posts at all? My goal is to help horses that are ALREADY domesticated to live as natural of a life as possible, but it goes both ways which is why I believe riding is okay. Ha. You must not be a vegetarian because when you actually want to be you check everything 5 times to make sure there is no meat at all in it. Did you seriously ask me some of those questions? I wish beef wasn't in grocery stores. It makes me angry when people like you decide that you don't want to change so you tear down people like Pat Parelli or other natural horsemanship. I am not "a super liberal type" and I repeat if you read my posts you would know that. Yeah of course ride horses, but CARE. Care that this is different from what they know. CARE that they feel things too. Care that sometimes just like humans they are having an off day. Just care about them.

Oh I must be mistaken, because I believe above was said that wild horses should be left alone....

You can beat your sweet cheeks that I am NOT a vegetarian. Beef by products are in a lot of things...if you drive on asphalt you are using a beef byproduct.....

By the way I am not tearing down Natural Horsemanship...all REAL natural horsemanship is, is common sense. Not some marketing gimmick for people who need a systamatic way of "communicating" with their horse.
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    03-12-2012, 05:56 PM
  #194
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Racer    
Emily, if you think horses aren't meant to serve humans, why do you ride yours? Honest question.
Lots of horses are domesticated and I would like to achieve a relationship with the horse similar to that of a leader in a herd. However, I am human so of course the relationship would be a bit different. I believe that a horse would enjoy the company of a human leader because then they are calm and know that they do not need to be looking out for themselves. They test though all the time asking the question "Are you still my leader? Okay good. I'm safe" Since safety is the most important thing to a horse that's a wonderful thing. So even though I enjoy riding, I don't just do it for fun. I do it because I honestly believe that a domesticated horse feels safe when they have a leader in charge. Then you can achieve that wonderful connection where both of you are moving together. If the horse says "Are you still me leader? Hello?" and the human doesn't go yes I am. Then the horse will "act up". When I say testing I mean shoving its nose into you and trying to bite you and it escalates and escalates. I don't show my horses or do any of that. I do believe though that horses love to have fun, they aren't just working machines so once you have achieved that close relationship you can do different things "fun things". I believe there is a huge difference between leader and boss. If my horse leans its nose into me I push it away, 2nd time I push it away, a 3rd time gets a bigger reaction, maybe being sent away until he/she understands yes you can stand next to me but only when you are nipping at me.

Then the horse understands though "Oh, I can't do that to you. You have rules. You are leader". My evidence nrhareiner is the horses that this has worked with. This is why I ride, but sometimes I go out and do the groundwork I always do before riding and I can tell that my horse is just a little off that day and I end up not riding, but just doing groundwork. I really believe people really need to hear the horse more.
     
    03-12-2012, 05:58 PM
  #195
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by COWCHICK77    
Oh I must be mistaken, because I believe above was said that wild horses should be left alone....

You can beat your sweet cheeks that I am NOT a vegetarian. Beef by products are in a lot of things...if you drive on asphalt you are using a beef byproduct.....

By the way I am not tearing down Natural Horsemanship...all REAL natural horsemanship is, is common sense. Not some marketing gimmick for people who need a systamatic way of "communicating" with their horse.
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What on earth? How am I even supposed to respond to this? There is nothing to respond too.
     
    03-12-2012, 06:00 PM
  #196
Foal
I repeat that I think this subject has been exhausted and there is nothing left to debate. I clearly understand, but disagree with the stance that seems to be this entire forum and I think what I believe has been made pretty clear, but disagreed with. I think there is nothing else to say.
     
    03-12-2012, 06:12 PM
  #197
Weanling
This is on the subject of Parelli and I think Emily is a good example for this scenario. Emily seems like a "good intentioned" horsewoman. She seems to have the best interest of her horses at heart. I don't think she would ever intentionally abuse or neglect her animals and she seeks to have a quality relationship with them. PP claims to be able to give this to people and I think this is just dangerous for anyone who is new to horses. I mean back in the day before the internet, DVD's and all the media hype of "do it yourself" training...how did horses get trained. Well they went to a pro...who had years of experience and knew how to do the job professionally. He would have apprenticed alongside another trainer and he would have this down like a craftsman... an artisan of sorts. I do believe people can train their horses...I know they can ruin training quiet easily as well. I think though that training horses is something that should be left to the people who have the experience to understand the animals physical, emotional & psychological needs and know how to lay a FIRM foundation. I think my problem with alot of these systems is we are seeing people get involved in an area that does take great skill to successfully complete and thus I see alot of half arsed trained animals that give people issues down the road. I think there are certain jobs for certain people. Training animals especially animals that are as large and potentially dangerous as a horse can be something out of the range of some peoples skills sets. Not to say that it can't be done...BUT...I think it is sad when someone with a super soft and compassionate attitude tries to apply system x to a dominant and bossy even aggressive animal and instead of helping make it better they only amplify every bad habit the horse has. They are good for some things BUT if you think they are the end all they are not and if you think everyone in the world is cut out to be a horse trainer you are mistaken. Some things are worth having a pro do.
     
    03-12-2012, 06:15 PM
  #198
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyRosie    
What on earth? How am I even supposed to respond to this? There is nothing to respond too.
Perhaps I am going on a bit of a rant, and not thinking sentences through. My point is that, we all care about our horses. We wouldn't be here if we didn't have horses. Just because some of us use our horses differently than you doesn't mean we don't care for them. They enjoy their "jobs" whatever definition you want to give it. And some of us don't chase cattle recreationaly( you said this was a different subject, but I am going there because it is related)it is our job to put beef on the table. While you don't eat beef you use a byproduct whether you want to admit it or not. Your right, I don't like PP, but I don't disagree with NH. It is the way its marketed...
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    03-12-2012, 06:22 PM
  #199
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyRosie    
Have you read ANY of my posts at all? My goal is to help horses that are ALREADY domesticated to live as natural of a life as possible, but it goes both ways which is why I believe riding is okay. Ha. You must not be a vegetarian because when you actually want to be you check everything 5 times to make sure there is no meat at all in it. Did you seriously ask me some of those questions?
Yes you where asked those questions b/c if you are a vegetarian vs Vegen these are things you need to address. If you do not then you are only doing what is convienent for you to satisfy what you think you should be doing.

I wish beef wasn't in grocery stores. It makes me angry when people like you decide that you don't want to change
Why should I change. Humans here designed to eat meat. You need the protiens in the meat. Why should I change what I like to satisfy you? I did not do in on tour when the artised said we had to I will not do it for you. I am not aksing you to change what you wish to eat. Do not agree with it but I am not asking that you eat meat so so not ask me to stop.

so you tear down people like Pat Parelli or other natural horsemanship.
Here is my big problem. PP is NOT NH. I have absolutly no problem with NH training. I use quite a bit of it myself. However PP is not NH he is a person who has given things a name and is making big money off people who do not know any better and 98% of the time the horses are the ones who suffer.

I am not "a super liberal type" and I repeat if you read my posts you would know that. Yeah of course ride horses, but CARE.

And I do not care about my horses? They get the best feed and hay, they get the best vet care, the best training, they are kept clean and dry and warm they ALWAYS have clean fresh water. Their water tanks (100 Gal each) get dumped and scrubed every few days. Their tack is the best money can buy and each horse has their own and it is fittet to them. They get everything they need when they get done working they bet bioscaned and when needed they she the Bioscan/Chiro. Out to adjust them.

Care that this is different from what they know. CARE that they feel things too. Care that sometimes just like humans they are having an off day. Just care about them.
This is what they know. They know about working and they love it. They have never known any different. My broodmares get ticked this time of year b/c they stop getting worked. The saddle does not fit them any more. They will start getting worked again in a few months.

Again I am not sure why you seem to think that we do not care about our horses. As you are so fond of saying READ what is typed.
franknbeans, NdAppy and COWCHICK77 like this.
     
    03-12-2012, 06:43 PM
  #200
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyRosie    
Lots of horses are domesticated and I would like to achieve a relationship with the horse similar to that of a leader in a herd.
Yep everytime I walk out to the barn or pasture I have that relationship. I automatically become the learder/Boss as they ARE the same thing. Even my Dun It mare falls in line.

However, I am human so of course the relationship would be a bit different.
No it is not. I am the leader. I tell them when and where to eat. I tell them what pasture to be in. I tell then when to go out and when to come in. Same thing a horse leader would be doing.

I believe that a horse would enjoy the company of a human leader because then they are calm and know that they do not need to be looking out for themselves. They test though all the time asking the question "Are you still my leader? Okay good. I'm safe" Since safety is the most important thing to a horse that's a wonderful thing. So even though I enjoy riding, I don't just do it for fun. I do what I do to have fun too. My horses are having fun right along with me. They think what they are doing is fun. Just like your horse thing packing your around is fun so do my horses. Why is it that only YOUR horse are the ones having fun and mine are some how miserable??
I do it because I honestly believe that a domesticated horse feels safe when they have a leader in charge.
This is not different then any other horse or animal. They all want to feel safe just like humans want to feel safe.

Then you can achieve that wonderful connection where both of you are moving together. Ever watch a reining horse? Ever watch Stacy Westfall? If that is not moving togeter then I am not sure what is. If the horse says "Are you still me leader? Hello?" and the human doesn't go yes I am. Then the horse will "act up". When I say testing I mean shoving its nose into you and trying to bite you and it escalates and escalates. Can not remember the last time my horses tested me. I have already proven I am the leader they know it they do not question it. I don't show my horses or do any of that. I do believe though that horses love to have fun, they aren't just working machines again I ask why do you think my horses are not having fun? I have stated time and time again that they love what they are doing and totally enjoy waht they do. so once you have achieved that close relationship you can do different things "fun things". According to my horse EVERYTHING I do with them is fun. SO when does the fun start and stop? Never does around here. They love what they do. I believe there is a huge difference between leader and boss. Have you ever had a job? Who leads who tells you what to do when to do it and so on? YOUR BOSS. Boss is just anouther word for leader person in charge. If my horse leans its nose into me I push it away, 2nd time I push it away, a 3rd time gets a bigger reaction, maybe being sent away until he/she understands yes you can stand next to me but only when you are nipping at me. You give your horse 3-4 times? Maybe that is why you still need to repremand them for that behavior. I do not pick on my horses. They do something wrong they get punished repromended what ever you wish to call it and that is it. They rarely do it again.

Then the horse understands though "Oh, I can't do that to you. You have rules. You are leader". My evidence nrhareiner is the horses that this has worked with. This is why I ride, but sometimes I go out and do the groundwork I always do before riding and I can tell that my horse is just a little off that day and I end up not riding, but just doing groundwork. I really believe people really need to hear the horse more.
I hear my horses just fine. I know what they like and I know what they do not like. Te hates running any speed event so I stopped doing play days with him. He loves to rein so I still at times leg him up and take him to shows. He LOVES going. He also loves roping even more so reined cow horse. So again at times I take him to practices and such so he can still get his "fix". Cassie does not like people who do not know what they are doing to ride her so I do not use her for beginners where Te loves kids so who do you think gets pulled out to give rides? Te my stallion not my finished proven reining mare. She does not suffer fouls well where Te loves them.
     

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