The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Pushy clicker trained horse and alternative rewards?

12K views 74 replies 18 participants last post by  kayhmk 
#1 ·
Sorry if you think this is more of a general Horse Training question, please move if needed.

So, today I got to work with a friend's horse. She's a very pushy, dominant mare who has initially been trained with NH and then clicker training. The mare's been away on a lease and apparently during that time everything's not gone all that nicely... Result: pushy, dominant, headstrong, stubborn, even aggressive mare. No clicker training while on lease.

I (more of a NH person myself) did a short session with her at liberty. She has no respect so that was my main focus. I asked her to move away from my space, move her forehand and hindquarters, back up and come (yo-yo game), follow in her place (ie. not pushing me away or going into my space/faster), stop and give her attention, lower hear head.

I was quite surprised I got her to listen and to do all of these things very lightly. Her usual "hell no, YOU do it" attitude and pushiness disappeared after first try at any task, like always.
However, I think I ran into a huge trouble with her the longer our session lasted.

She has been worked in a way that she gets a click for reward as well as "loose" (removal of pressure). Either one on their own should be ok. Usually after a series of clicks, a treat. Well I didn't have any treats with me, so I mainly let her stand and took away the pressure as a reward. A click here and there, but as I'm not a clicker training person, it doesn't come naturally. She didn't see petting as a reward (tried).

At first, she did things very well. The longer I worked with her, the more insistent she became with asking for a treat. First it was just a look "do I get the treat now?" then pawing, after that poking her nose "hey you, treat!". After a while I think it got to a point where her dominant nature took over and she was very close to biting me in an attempt to find a treat. Her attitude towards working ("yeah, let's play") didn't deteriorate.
I kept on asking her away from my space and tried to give her something else to think. At the end I had to give up on our session because I didn't want to risk her biting. This is a horse that will bite a human.

So the question is: how should I have handled the situation? How would I need to handle it in the future? Is this a problem with the horse's clicker training or her pushiness? Me? None of those things? Should I prepare her in some way to let her know "this session will offer you know treats, your reward is this"? Any other tips?
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Not sure where to begin. No more treats. To gain respect I want you to start following her around in a large paddock or pasture. If you have snow, set out an armful then back away. She will go to the hay. Come around behind her but well out of kicking distance and when she is eating, begin walking briskly and wave your arms a little to get her to move. Stand at the hay a few seconds then walk away and allow her to return. Do this until she will keep both eyes on you and it gets difficult to get around behind her. When she will do this slump your shoulders and extend a hand, fingers down and see if she will greet you. If she keeps her nose and inch away you must wait until she touches you. Don't close the gap or you've given her the wrong message. When she touches turn and walk away and let her eat. Her reward is your departure. The entire exercise has told her that you hold a higher rank than her when you move her off her feed. You can do the same if theres grass. You are beginning to teach her respect. Horses do this all the time in a herd. You've seen horses squabble over hay. Who wins-the dominant one and on down the pecking order. Try this with the horse and pm me if you have any questions.
 
#3 ·
...However, I think I ran into a huge trouble with her the longer our session lasted.

She has been worked in a way that she gets a click for reward as well as "loose" (removal of pressure). Either one on their own should be ok. Usually after a series of clicks, a treat. Well I didn't have any treats with me, so I mainly let her stand and took away the pressure as a reward. A click here and there, but as I'm not a clicker training person, it doesn't come naturally. She didn't see petting as a reward (tried).
These are the problems I see: thinking of the horse in a sort of mechanical) or computerized?) way, that you do something, and you should get the same result. Every time. You push a button, the thing happens.

But horses are living creatures, living in an ever-changing world. The "session" changes as time goes on. The situtation after ten minutes is not the same as when you first start out. What makes it different?

The second problem is along the same lines, the concept of "reward"--do horses even think of it in our terms? I don't think so.

To me it's one of the most fascinating things about the human-equine relationship. We see in a narrow focus, through time; horses see nearly everything in a globe around them, in a compressed, strongly (but not absolutely) now-time. We expect food to be a "reward" because to us, predators, it is. Horses more or less expect food to be around them at all times. They graze and browse.

So what is this "reward"? I believe it's a shift in the whole circle of their now-environment: a time for pause, to taste and move the tongue, maybe to look around. They like the taste of the sweet; but we've all had horses who wouldn't take a treat. It's not a guaranteed reward.

I've been trying to work out WHY any of our training even works. I'm beginning to think it's because horses in general ENJOY the break, or mark, or poke, in their awareness; just the way we (or I, anyway) enjoy these moments when I'm entirely in One Time, or call it timelessness, and the sense I'm in connection with another species. Clicker training can be extremely effective, but like so many things, it's more effective when you allow it to happen, instead of trying to force it.

I guess my suggestion would be to ask yourself exactly WHAT you want your horse to do, and then try to think in her terms, of what would make this action seem like a good thing. If you THEN give the click, the click will still be associated with something "good."
 
#27 ·
To me it's one of the most fascinating things about the human-equine relationship. We see in a narrow focus, through time; horses see nearly everything in a globe around them, in a compressed, strongly (but not absolutely) now-time. We expect food to be a "reward" because to us, predators, it is. Horses more or less expect food to be around them at all times. They graze and browse.
I never thought of this before; huh, fascinating.
 
#4 ·
I use food rewards in my training quite a bit, but what you have described is what I call: Paying more attention to the food than to what we are doing.

It is a careful balance between having your horse responsive and attentive, hoping for a "bonus reward" and having your horse demanding a reward. If I feel that my horse might not do something without a treat, I take the treats away. My horses should do things because I asked, not because they are trying to get something out of me. If they are looking to get something from you ALL THE TIME that reverses the training, they are training you to do things for them, not learning to do things for you.

The type of horse you describe actually benefits from food reward training, but like I said before, it is a fine balance. If they are using the food to dominate you, and distract you from what you are doing in a lesson, it's time to change something. I would keep on as you did in the first lesson, when she starts to get pushy go just a little longer, so she doesn't learn that being pushy is a way to end a lesson, but also don't argue with her about it. Have an "if your going to be like that I'm not going to play with you" attitude and quit even if it's for just a few minutes.

My rule of thumb about food with horses is : I'm in charge! "Sure you can graze!...when I say so." "Yes, Have a cookie!...when I think you deserve it."
 
#5 ·
First, argh and apologies on that typo ("no rewards", not "know rewards"... should focus on writing!).

Second, thanks for all your input!

On Saddlebag's advice: I don't see that helping. We were on a large paddock with snow on the ground and a few specific feeding places. One even on the ground right where we worked and after telling her "no eating, eyes on me", she didn't even try to stray away or eat.

That greeting thing sounded interesting though. I think I should really work on it with my mare. Thinking about it, it could help with our attention issues and getting her to make the initiative. Really made me realise that usually I go to my horse in the end.

Now if I could write, I think Fargosgirl's post is very much in the direction I would say.
 
#6 · (Edited)
I think the only reward a horse needs is a release of pressure. It is an instant connection in the brain of a horse.

I also think food rewards only serve to make training more difficult and less consistent. I seldom have seen a treat or food reward that a horse even connected with the action that the person thought they were rewarding. A reward would have to come at the same instant as the good thing was done and the pressure was released. When a reward comes even 2 or 3 seconds after that, it only confuses the horse and distracts it from the attention it was paying to the handler or rider.

Early in my training career I tried various treats and reward systems and found none worked as well or got the good consistent end results as applying pressure and the release of that pressure at exactly the correct moments.

No one has ever been able to demonstrate to me that they made training easier by using treats. I have always been able to take the same horse and get better results AND a happier and more attentive horse using only pressure and release (usually taking less pressure). Plus, I never have had to deal with pushy horses looking for, or worse, demanding treats. They're NEVER very happy and always are applying the pressure when they should just be waiting and listening to you. [Think of the child whining for candy at the Super Market check-out stand.] That is what I see when I see a horse that has been rewarded with food treats.
 
#7 ·
Cherie, I tend to agree with you!

To tell you the truth, I'm in a bit of a positive/negative reinforcement dilemma at the moment. I guess this clicker training/food reward issue is pretty central to that...

The only thing for which I'm currently using and seeing the logic of food rewards is stretching exercises. My greedy horse will work without fighting for a carrot despite her sore muscles. :)
 
#9 ·
Absolutely, I think it's more physiotherapy or general muscle care, not training. I guess some tricks, like 'begging' with front feet might be easy to teach with treats but not being a trick training sort of person, those are of no use to me.

... and that maybe sheds a light on my understanding and experience of the usefulness of food rewards. :)
 
#10 ·
OP, I use both positive (CT) and negative rewards when I train. But I also keep those sessions separate and different. I like to use clicker training to teach the concept and I keep those sessions very short. I also use release of pressure in separate and longer sessions. I have only been doing this for 6 months so take this for the two cents its worth.

1. If this horse has not done CT in a long time, you should only do the CT for 5 minutes to start. As the horse shows more endurance you can increase it. You can do many short sessions in a day. Stop on a good note. Reward often. Short and sweet.

2.Once a horse show undesirable behaviors to get treats, your goal behavior now becomes the opposite of that pushy behavior. Is she in your space? You may need to just focus on backing out of your space. You may even need her behind a barrier and reward her when she looks away, for example, or is standing with head forward, ears forward, eyes forward. If you are worried she will bite, you must go back to basics and teach manners. Shortening the session may help since her pushiness may be from frustration.

3. I use pressure/release for the majority (80%)of my training time and it is to practice what they know and understand.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#11 ·
Kayhmk. You need to approach from directly behind, well out of kicking range. Use a lunge whip if you have to an ramp up your energy. Use the whip to get her moving if you have to. Just don't get kicked. She didn't move, you quit and she won. If the lash landing on her rump doesn't work try the back legs. She needs to move off the pile, not race around the place. Keep moving in behind her and soon she'll want to hind her hiney. If she didn't move for a dominant horse she'd receive a nasty bite on the rump or above the hocks.
 
#12 ·
I tried clicker training for a couple months with my, at the time, yearling. It wasn't what I wanted for our relationship. It got in the way of communication and train of thought for me, and as a result he became pushy and demanding. (he already was a pushy dominant type, and it intensified as we went along) I tried to ride it out and do as the clicker trainers suggest, but was unsuccessful.

Now that being said I can see where it could work. It just wasn't for me. I think horses think so much different than we do as predators and you have to be very careful how you use it and present it.
 
#14 ·
Have you ever been to a barn where there's one horse who kicks the wall at feeding time? Or a lesson program where lesson ponies knock their children down as soon as they see a carrot? This is because these tbehaviors have rewarded them in the past. Often humans feed the loudest ones first to shut them up - only further reinforcing their behavior. Food is a Powerful motivator for horses.
Unfortunately people use it so Very wrong. We use it to shut them up or calm them down when they're frantically galloping around their paddock people will toss them some hay so they'll quiet down. Now the horse has learned galloping frantically = hay.

When done correctly CT fixes pushy horses better than anything else I've seen. I run a rescue many horses come in pushy and rude, sometimes aggressive, especially around food. CT has got them all standing respectfully and backing up and waiting when it's time to dump their grain.
Food is a powerful motivator...
 
#13 ·
I'm frustrated - THIS is why CT gets such a bad reputation! Because people allow their horses to become pushy and still reward it.

I have Several Clicker Trained horses and not 1 of them will mug for treats, None of them are pushy or rude.
That's because even if I click, if they get pushy NO treats.
The FIRST thing I teach all my CT horses is that the only way they'll ever get a treat is if all 4 feet are on the ground (unless I'm asking otherwise) and they're standing calmly a respectful distance away. I reinforce this skill Through ALL our work by only feeding them behind their chin so they have to move further out of my space in order to get their reward. My horses Never associate being in my space with anything positive, respectfully out of my space doing what I ask is what gets them their reward - Nothing Else!

Clicker training is a wonderful style that works wonders on many horses - but like Any style of training, done wrong can cause the horses to be bad. FOOD is a powerful motivator! Whatever they did that got rewarded with food they will do more and more and more and more extremely! If they invade your space and get food they're going to knock you down next time, if once they whinny, the next time they scream, if once the tap the wall, the next they're kicking it. Which is why they should Only be rewarded when doing the correct thing and Never be rewarded for anything rude or dangerous.

Just like every style of training out there, there are people who do it poorly and give the whole style a bad rep. Yes ALL the styles can work, it's up to the trainer and horse which is the most effective for them. Please don't put down CT because a few lazy trainers who don't take the time to maintain respect.
 
#15 ·
I'm frustrated - THIS is why CT gets such a bad reputation! Because people allow their horses to become pushy and still reward it.

I have Several Clicker Trained horses and not 1 of them will mug for treats, None of them are pushy or rude.
That's because even if I click, if they get pushy NO treats.
The FIRST thing I teach all my CT horses is that the only way they'll ever get a treat is if all 4 feet are on the ground (unless I'm asking otherwise) and they're standing calmly a respectful distance away. I reinforce this skill Through ALL our work by only feeding them behind their chin so they have to move further out of my space in order to get their reward. My horses Never associate being in my space with anything positive, respectfully out of my space doing what I ask is what gets them their reward - Nothing Else!

Clicker training is a wonderful style that works wonders on many horses - but like Any style of training, done wrong can cause the horses to be bad. FOOD is a powerful motivator! Whatever they did that got rewarded with food they will do more and more and more and more extremely! If they invade your space and get food they're going to knock you down next time, if once they whinny, the next time they scream, if once the tap the wall, the next they're kicking it. Which is why they should Only be rewarded when doing the correct thing and Never be rewarded for anything rude or dangerous.

Just like every style of training out there, there are people who do it poorly and give the whole style a bad rep. Yes ALL the styles can work, it's up to the trainer and horse which is the most effective for them. Please don't put down CT because a few lazy trainers who don't take the time to maintain respect.
This question I have is that if you were doing ground work with a horse and asked them to do some manuever, which they did, and then they moved close to you, and then you backed them off in order to give them the food reward, aren't you only teaching them to back away from you? I mean, that is what they did that earned the reward, not the "manuever" you first had them do.


I give treats to my lease horse, but more or less randomly. When tacking up I give him on to distract him from the girthing irritation. I give him one after mounting (sometimes, not always) and when our ride is done, I give him one and loosen his girth for the brief walk downt he driveway. I am sure that my treat giving is not the best thing for him, but I tolerate any kind of mugging he may do, as he behaves well enough in most other respects.


My friend's horse is a bit pushy and in-your-face . when I work with him on the ground, his reward is that I set him well off away from me, lay the slack of the leadrope on the ground (a long line) and allow him to rest AWAY from me. when he is next to me, he will have to work. So, he will be happy to be out there waiting on me, but not pushing on me.
 
#17 ·
I have seen people do some good things with clicker training but its always my concern that it continues after the horse has learnt the exercise - same goes for the giving of treats as a reward, they become a habit and the horse expects one regardless
Does the horse see the 'click' as something thats going to be followed by a reward and so starts to demand a treat every time it hears a click or does it see its compliance as the reason for the reward?
I might give a treat as a one off reward for a learning thing but no more, mostly I tend to expect my horse to do what I ask and they get a pat or a 'good girl/boy' and that keeps them happy, they know they've done right
Horses are a lot like children, my kids didnt get rewarded for going to bed when told, picking up their stuff when told, coming home on time when told.......................its whats expected of them.
 
#19 ·
This is actually the essence of proper clicker training: once the horse knows what you expect, then it has to do more than that to get the click and treat. Properly done, the horse should not need (and especially not ask or demand) a treat when doing things that are already trained and not new. The click and treat enhance communication to teach the horse what you want when you want it, not just a reward for compliance because complaince should be expected.
 
#23 ·
Another example is that I used to click for my horse when he stood still tied. As with all babies, this was an entirely new concept for him. I had to start clicking for any moment he paused, and then standing by him and extending the time, and finally moving away from him and clicking when he stayed still. Obviously, I no longer click for standing tied - it's expected that he's not going to freak out.

Riding is another excellent example where he really impressed me and surpassed my expectations. I did minimal clicker training when putting him under saddle as I was using a sidepull and was just applying the lessons from giving to the halter to being used while I was on his back. At first, he didn't know I wanted him to move when I was on him, so I had to click for a step or two forward. When he understood what I wanted (literally a few clicks later), i just applied pressure with the sidepull. He got the concept pretty quickly, so I only clicked a few times to reassure him that he understood that, but there was no point to keep "training" giving to the direct, so then I started teaching him to move off my leg, using the direct rein as a hint. He didnt get a click until he moved off my leg pressure, and now he's neck reining and on the verge of being able to ride bridleless. However, I took him on a poker ride in the midst of this. I didn't want to worry about training, but I brought the clicker and treats along just in case we ran into trouble (I have a fanny pack with treats). However, I didn't even use it once - we went over bridges, across culverts, and down narrow trails. All while dressed up for Halloween as a cow with horns and everything and having never been ridden off the property before and without a horse to lead the way. Now, a lot of that is just his personality, but I was very impressed at he didn't need the clicker once, but the training was there and was solid. (and he never asked for one, either)
 
#26 ·
Tinyliny, your question about moving the horse out of your space and what the reward then would teach. That is when you have to shift your thinking. If backing out of your space is rewarded (even if it's intention was for the maneuver you'd gotten) he will become more mindful of staying out of your space. If you do this consistantly a few times he'll learn that a treat just won't happen when he's in your space. The next time you ask for the maneuver, see how quickly he will get out of your space to get the reward when you click. The click is what teaches.
 
#31 ·
Sorry I did not read all the other answers. But here my 2 cents: The situation you descriped is exactly why I do not use treats to train my horses! (And because it might get a bit expensive when you work with 7 diffrent horses a day :0)) Anyway, you should get a little bit more firm in your training, I like what you do with backing her up, make her move away from you to not be in your space and and and, but if she starts pawing with her feet or anything like that, put all your energy in backing her up, make her work hard to understand that this is not ok! She will understand eventually but she def. has to accept the fact that you are the leader in your relationship and with a pushy horse like that (at least it sounds like it) you need to be really firm, watch your body language, timing is a big thing - release at the right moment, correct the smallest thing she does that you think is not good, watch her ears and be ready at ALL TIMES to make her work, again make the good thing easy and the bad thing REALLY hard for the horse. I am sure you will fix this issue but it might take some time! Good luck!!!
 
#32 ·
Wow, very interesting stuff here about CT in general! I totally agree what was said earlier: people doing CT wrong (ie. getting stuck and rewarding already learned behaviour) is what turns many people off it without really testing/learning about it.

On the horse I talked about in the beginning of this topic: I recently found out that while on lease the people there didn't do CT (like I said) BUT they BRIBED the horse into doing things! This includes the basic stuff from leading to moving away. Explains a lot...
On a happier note, she's transformed a lot since starting this thread. Gone is the "treat. NOW!" attitude.
 
#35 ·
A interesting thought occurred to me.... Everyone who's knocking clicker training has either never tried and/or never taken the time to understand how and why it works. Meanwhile those who have do supoort its use in situations other than just trick training. Yes, we do vary in how we apply its principles and how we combine it with other methods, but in the end, I haven't found anyone that actually tried it correctly with a horse that will tell you it's useless or creates problem horses. They may decide it's not their preferred method and even not to use it, but I think they would still agree that it's a useful tool for those that want to use it.

I'm fairly positive Budweiser uses clicker training in some form to train their horses. Watch one of their training videos on you tube and it's clear they understand and work for the "Goody Boy!" cue (in lieu of a clicker) and that it has been given some sort of positive and reinforcing meaning - and I highly doubt there's anyone that will claim the words "good boy" mean anything to a horse without being connected to a reinforcer. There is no pressure used in asking and training the horses, and, though I haven't found any videos of them actually presenting the reinforcer, I'm positive they've associated the "Good Boy" with something they want and will work for. I did read somewhere where someone wrote an article about watching the trainer using clicker training. Now, is there anyone here who will claim that the Budweiser trainers have poor horsemanship?
 
#40 ·
You must not have looked too far ;) Most clicker trained horses I know are the calmest and most responsive under saddle. I've only backed 2 horses using all CT, but have used it to better more than a few previously trained horses - particularly one Very ring-sour perch cross (would throw total fits just entering the ring).
This is not me, just a video I found on youtube -The mounted work starts around 1:20
 
#41 ·
what about actual riding, like dressage or jumping ? working the horse, not just playing around with it ?

i have two calm and great horses, both very talented, with out the use of clicker training, i am not convinced. one of my horses was not only on the leader board for multiple years in eventing, winning many many events, but can jump courses with no tack- not even a rope around the neck.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wanstrom Horses
#42 ·
You don't need to use clicker training - no one is telling you you need to :) in fact if you're that dead-set against it, it's probably better off you don't. CT requires just as much consistency, timing and practice as any other form of training. As with most things in life each goal can be met through several different pathways. CT is one of the paths you can take to riding a horse. It is not something to train - it's a style of teaching and learning, it can be used to teach anything.
If you're unsure of how it can be used for professional riding you should look into the Cavalia show, all their horses are trained with a form of positive reinforcement, even the dressage, vaulting and trick jumping horses. I use it to teach my pony unmounted agility, like dog agility, which is a sport in some countries :) I just haven't found any local competitions for him xD
You could also look at the Budweiser Clydesdales who are also Clicker Trained.
Anything a horse CAN learn, can be taught with CT.

The reason you don't see many high level eventers or dressage riders using Clicker training is because they've spent years under professional training using more common-place training and riding styles. While CT is a very old style of training it's not yet commonly used (due to some negative stereotypes) and old horse people being stuck in their ways ;)
But if you look well enough you might spot a rider who uses CT even in the high levels :) They're hard to notice though, because in the show you don't easily see how they're trained - just the results.
 
#43 ·
every time i ask this question i never get a straight answer, as in 'oh here, look this person trained with it and was successful' i am not 'dead set' against anything. i am actually pretty open about most training methods, but i have never seen anything useful besides trick training or ground stuff [like clipper training]. not any riding training that is useful. the people i know who have tried it undersaddle are not good riders and dont work hard enough at anything to get a good result with anything. over all, this is why i remain unconvinced. if CT worked so well i think you would see more people using it. jmo.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wanstrom Horses
#44 ·
While I agree - I see too many unmotivated riders using CT and only half training their horses. There are many professionals who do. I don't think many of them come right out and say it though. But I think I was pretty straight forward when I mentioned Cavalia and the Clydesdales. Both of those are trained VERY useful skills. The Clydes drive incredibly well, especially in such large teams. The Cavalia horses do EVERYTHING - from regular tackless riding, to dressage (in pairs), to jumping, to trick jumping, to vaulting and so much more. It's my belief that Stacy Westfall uses a form of CT (or positive reinforcement) - but I don't know if she's ever come out and said it? I believe many professional riders who use CT wouldn't say it too loud due to the 'controversy'. So to say CT isn't used for anything useful is kind of closed minded IMO.
CT can be used for anything. If you want to use it, you can use it to teach any skill mounted or otherwise, useful or otherwise. Don't limit your training to just what you've seen other people do. Just because most people limit CT to tricks (because tricks are fun!!) doesn't mean it needs to be limited to that.

This person is a member of the forum, she's one of my idles ^^ I believe she even uses CT for reining, or at least that's what the video implies :) I don't know if she's taken it professional or not.


This horse learned a simple version of Passage and Piaffe (granted it's unmounted in this video) - but you can see if someone wanted to they could easily use CT for dressage and take this skill under saddle.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top