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Pushy clicker trained horse and alternative rewards?

This is a discussion on Pushy clicker trained horse and alternative rewards? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        01-31-2013, 08:24 AM
      #11
    Showing
    Kayhmk. You need to approach from directly behind, well out of kicking range. Use a lunge whip if you have to an ramp up your energy. Use the whip to get her moving if you have to. Just don't get kicked. She didn't move, you quit and she won. If the lash landing on her rump doesn't work try the back legs. She needs to move off the pile, not race around the place. Keep moving in behind her and soon she'll want to hind her hiney. If she didn't move for a dominant horse she'd receive a nasty bite on the rump or above the hocks.
         
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        01-31-2013, 12:28 PM
      #12
    Foal
    I tried clicker training for a couple months with my, at the time, yearling. It wasn't what I wanted for our relationship. It got in the way of communication and train of thought for me, and as a result he became pushy and demanding. (he already was a pushy dominant type, and it intensified as we went along) I tried to ride it out and do as the clicker trainers suggest, but was unsuccessful.

    Now that being said I can see where it could work. It just wasn't for me. I think horses think so much different than we do as predators and you have to be very careful how you use it and present it.
         
        01-31-2013, 12:41 PM
      #13
    Started
    I'm frustrated - THIS is why CT gets such a bad reputation! Because people allow their horses to become pushy and still reward it.

    I have Several Clicker Trained horses and not 1 of them will mug for treats, None of them are pushy or rude.
    That's because even if I click, if they get pushy NO treats.
    The FIRST thing I teach all my CT horses is that the only way they'll ever get a treat is if all 4 feet are on the ground (unless I'm asking otherwise) and they're standing calmly a respectful distance away. I reinforce this skill Through ALL our work by only feeding them behind their chin so they have to move further out of my space in order to get their reward. My horses Never associate being in my space with anything positive, respectfully out of my space doing what I ask is what gets them their reward - Nothing Else!

    Clicker training is a wonderful style that works wonders on many horses - but like Any style of training, done wrong can cause the horses to be bad. FOOD is a powerful motivator! Whatever they did that got rewarded with food they will do more and more and more and more extremely! If they invade your space and get food they're going to knock you down next time, if once they whinny, the next time they scream, if once the tap the wall, the next they're kicking it. Which is why they should Only be rewarded when doing the correct thing and Never be rewarded for anything rude or dangerous.

    Just like every style of training out there, there are people who do it poorly and give the whole style a bad rep. Yes ALL the styles can work, it's up to the trainer and horse which is the most effective for them. Please don't put down CT because a few lazy trainers who don't take the time to maintain respect.
    jillybean19 and Foxtail Ranch like this.
         
        01-31-2013, 12:46 PM
      #14
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hkfarms    
    I tried clicker training for a couple months with my, at the time, yearling. It wasn't what I wanted for our relationship. It got in the way of communication and train of thought for me, and as a result he became pushy and demanding. (he already was a pushy dominant type, and it intensified as we went along) I tried to ride it out and do as the clicker trainers suggest, but was unsuccessful.

    Now that being said I can see where it could work. It just wasn't for me. I think horses think so much different than we do as predators and you have to be very careful how you use it and present it.
    Have you ever been to a barn where there's one horse who kicks the wall at feeding time? Or a lesson program where lesson ponies knock their children down as soon as they see a carrot? This is because these tbehaviors have rewarded them in the past. Often humans feed the loudest ones first to shut them up - only further reinforcing their behavior. Food is a Powerful motivator for horses.
    Unfortunately people use it so Very wrong. We use it to shut them up or calm them down when they're frantically galloping around their paddock people will toss them some hay so they'll quiet down. Now the horse has learned galloping frantically = hay.

    When done correctly CT fixes pushy horses better than anything else I've seen. I run a rescue many horses come in pushy and rude, sometimes aggressive, especially around food. CT has got them all standing respectfully and backing up and waiting when it's time to dump their grain.
    Food is a powerful motivator...
    themacpack likes this.
         
        01-31-2013, 01:10 PM
      #15
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PunksTank    
    I'm frustrated - THIS is why CT gets such a bad reputation! Because people allow their horses to become pushy and still reward it.

    I have Several Clicker Trained horses and not 1 of them will mug for treats, None of them are pushy or rude.
    That's because even if I click, if they get pushy NO treats.
    The FIRST thing I teach all my CT horses is that the only way they'll ever get a treat is if all 4 feet are on the ground (unless I'm asking otherwise) and they're standing calmly a respectful distance away. I reinforce this skill Through ALL our work by only feeding them behind their chin so they have to move further out of my space in order to get their reward. My horses Never associate being in my space with anything positive, respectfully out of my space doing what I ask is what gets them their reward - Nothing Else!

    Clicker training is a wonderful style that works wonders on many horses - but like Any style of training, done wrong can cause the horses to be bad. FOOD is a powerful motivator! Whatever they did that got rewarded with food they will do more and more and more and more extremely! If they invade your space and get food they're going to knock you down next time, if once they whinny, the next time they scream, if once the tap the wall, the next they're kicking it. Which is why they should Only be rewarded when doing the correct thing and Never be rewarded for anything rude or dangerous.

    Just like every style of training out there, there are people who do it poorly and give the whole style a bad rep. Yes ALL the styles can work, it's up to the trainer and horse which is the most effective for them. Please don't put down CT because a few lazy trainers who don't take the time to maintain respect.
    This question I have is that if you were doing ground work with a horse and asked them to do some manuever, which they did, and then they moved close to you, and then you backed them off in order to give them the food reward, aren't you only teaching them to back away from you? I mean, that is what they did that earned the reward, not the "manuever" you first had them do.


    I give treats to my lease horse, but more or less randomly. When tacking up I give him on to distract him from the girthing irritation. I give him one after mounting (sometimes, not always) and when our ride is done, I give him one and loosen his girth for the brief walk downt he driveway. I am sure that my treat giving is not the best thing for him, but I tolerate any kind of mugging he may do, as he behaves well enough in most other respects.


    My friend's horse is a bit pushy and in-your-face . When I work with him on the ground, his reward is that I set him well off away from me, lay the slack of the leadrope on the ground (a long line) and allow him to rest AWAY from me. When he is next to me, he will have to work. So, he will be happy to be out there waiting on me, but not pushing on me.
         
        01-31-2013, 01:20 PM
      #16
    mls
    Trained
    Thumbs down Cruel!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Saddlebag    
    Not sure where to begin. No more treats. To gain respect I want you to start following her around in a large paddock or pasture. If you have snow, set out an armful then back away. She will go to the hay. Come around behind her but well out of kicking distance and when she is eating, begin walking briskly and wave your arms a little to get her to move. Stand at the hay a few seconds then walk away and allow her to return. Do this until she will keep both eyes on you and it gets difficult to get around behind her. When she will do this slump your shoulders and extend a hand, fingers down and see if she will greet you. If she keeps her nose and inch away you must wait until she touches you. Don't close the gap or you've given her the wrong message. When she touches turn and walk away and let her eat. Her reward is your departure. The entire exercise has told her that you hold a higher rank than her when you move her off her feed. You can do the same if theres grass. You are beginning to teach her respect. Horses do this all the time in a herd. You've seen horses squabble over hay. Who wins-the dominant one and on down the pecking order. Try this with the horse and pm me if you have any questions.

    WHY? I do not see any reason to use food as a training too. That is just cruel. Treats are completely different from something that is necessary to sustain their health and life.
         
        01-31-2013, 01:26 PM
      #17
    Super Moderator
    I have seen people do some good things with clicker training but its always my concern that it continues after the horse has learnt the exercise - same goes for the giving of treats as a reward, they become a habit and the horse expects one regardless
    Does the horse see the 'click' as something that's going to be followed by a reward and so starts to demand a treat every time it hears a click or does it see its compliance as the reason for the reward?
    I might give a treat as a one off reward for a learning thing but no more, mostly I tend to expect my horse to do what I ask and they get a pat or a 'good girl/boy' and that keeps them happy, they know they've done right
    Horses are a lot like children, my kids didnt get rewarded for going to bed when told, picking up their stuff when told, coming home on time when told.......................its whats expected of them.
    hkfarms likes this.
         
        01-31-2013, 02:17 PM
      #18
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by PunksTank    
    Have you ever been to a barn where there's one horse who kicks the wall at feeding time? Or a lesson program where lesson ponies knock their children down as soon as they see a carrot? This is because these tbehaviors have rewarded them in the past. Often humans feed the loudest ones first to shut them up - only further reinforcing their behavior. Food is a Powerful motivator for horses.
    Unfortunately people use it so Very wrong. We use it to shut them up or calm them down when they're frantically galloping around their paddock people will toss them some hay so they'll quiet down. Now the horse has learned galloping frantically = hay.

    When done correctly CT fixes pushy horses better than anything else I've seen. I run a rescue many horses come in pushy and rude, sometimes aggressive, especially around food. CT has got them all standing respectfully and backing up and waiting when it's time to dump their grain.
    Food is a powerful motivator...
    I am not against CT, if it works for you then great. It just was not for me.
         
        01-31-2013, 02:18 PM
      #19
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    I have seen people do some good things with clicker training but its always my concern that it continues after the horse has learnt the exercise - same goes for the giving of treats as a reward, they become a habit and the horse expects one regardless
    Does the horse see the 'click' as something that's going to be followed by a reward and so starts to demand a treat every time it hears a click or does it see its compliance as the reason for the reward?
    I might give a treat as a one off reward for a learning thing but no more, mostly I tend to expect my horse to do what I ask and they get a pat or a 'good girl/boy' and that keeps them happy, they know they've done right
    Horses are a lot like children, my kids didnt get rewarded for going to bed when told, picking up their stuff when told, coming home on time when told.......................its whats expected of them.
    This is actually the essence of proper clicker training: once the horse knows what you expect, then it has to do more than that to get the click and treat. Properly done, the horse should not need (and especially not ask or demand) a treat when doing things that are already trained and not new. The click and treat enhance communication to teach the horse what you want when you want it, not just a reward for compliance because complaince should be expected.
         
        01-31-2013, 04:48 PM
      #20
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jillybean19    
    This is actually the essence of proper clicker training: once the horse knows what you expect, then it has to do more than that to get the click and treat. Properly done, the horse should not need (and especially not ask or demand) a treat when doing things that are already trained and not new. The click and treat enhance communication to teach the horse what you want when you want it, not just a reward for compliance because complaince should be expected.
    So would you stop using the clicker when that part of the training was learned and established?
         

    Tags
    biting, clicker training, natural horsemanship, removal of pressure, treats

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