Sorry I did not read all the other answers. But here my 2 cents: The situation you descriped is exactly why I do not use treats to train my horses! (And because it might get a bit expensive when you work with 7 diffrent horses a day :0)) Anyway, you should get a little bit more firm in your training, I like what you do with backing her up, make her move away from you to not be in your space and and and, but if she starts pawing with her feet or anything like that, put all your energy in backing her up, make her work hard to understand that this is not ok! She will understand eventually but she def. Has to accept the fact that you are the leader in your relationship and with a pushy horse like that (at least it sounds like it) you need to be really firm, watch your body language, timing is a big thing - release at the right moment, correct the smallest thing she does that you think is not good, watch her ears and be ready at ALL TIMES to make her work, again make the good thing easy and the bad thing REALLY hard for the horse. I am sure you will fix this issue but it might take some time! Good luck!!!
Wow, very interesting stuff here about CT in general! I totally agree what was said earlier: people doing CT wrong (ie. Getting stuck and rewarding already learned behaviour) is what turns many people off it without really testing/learning about it.
On the horse I talked about in the beginning of this topic: I recently found out that while on lease the people there didn't do CT (like I said) BUT they BRIBED the horse into doing things! This includes the basic stuff from leading to moving away. Explains a lot...
On a happier note, she's transformed a lot since starting this thread. Gone is the "treat. NOW!" attitude.
This is an awesome question!! I struggled with this thought a bit too. But then in practice I realized it's not the treat that teaches the horse it's the click. Sure click=treat, but the click marks in their mind the correct action - the treat is just the reason why they want the click. So in the case of my mare who engulfed my whole hand to take the treat, nearly nibbling fingers, she had to learn not to. I would click for whatever we were working on (I think we were working on sidepassing at the time. She would hear the click and wait for her treat patiently, but if she reached for my hand with her mouth wide open I'd take it away. Sometimes I'd let her try again but typically just took it away. She still learned the sidepass - the click told her she did something right, but she didn't get the treat for being grabby. It didn't take her more than 2 or 3 lost treats to learn to use her lips to pick it up.
As for the question from someone else about "do you need to give them treats every time they do anything - NO! This is the biggest misconception!
Every skill we teach our horses is built on another once they understand the beginnjng of a skill you just keep building only rewarding for the next step up.
So for example, teaching my pony to do his obstacle course. I started by teachinh hin to touch a crop target with his nose in his stall. Then he had to follow it around outside. He no longer needed to be clicked or treated when he touched it onky if he followed it. Then he needed to follow it over a jump at a walk, then trot, then a series of jumps, then around cones - now the whole course before he gets treats. You only need to reward what's new.
Very interesting!~ I 'd love to see your horse doing the obstacle course. Do you have it on video?
I was able to stop the treat mugging monster with CT.
It's a tool, and you have to know how to use it.
A interesting thought occurred to me.... Everyone who's knocking clicker training has either never tried and/or never taken the time to understand how and why it works. Meanwhile those who have do supoort its use in situations other than just trick training. Yes, we do vary in how we apply its principles and how we combine it with other methods, but in the end, I haven't found anyone that actually tried it correctly with a horse that will tell you it's useless or creates problem horses. They may decide it's not their preferred method and even not to use it, but I think they would still agree that it's a useful tool for those that want to use it.
I'm fairly positive Budweiser uses clicker training in some form to train their horses. Watch one of their training videos on you tube and it's clear they understand and work for the "Goody Boy!" cue (in lieu of a clicker) and that it has been given some sort of positive and reinforcing meaning - and I highly doubt there's anyone that will claim the words "good boy" mean anything to a horse without being connected to a reinforcer. There is no pressure used in asking and training the horses, and, though I haven't found any videos of them actually presenting the reinforcer, I'm positive they've associated the "Good Boy" with something they want and will work for. I did read somewhere where someone wrote an article about watching the trainer using clicker training. Now, is there anyone here who will claim that the Budweiser trainers have poor horsemanship?
very interesting!~ I 'd love to see your horse doing the obstacle course. Do you have it on video?
Now that I think of it I don't! I usually record all my actual training sessions (for self evaluation xD) But I usually rest it on the fence and sense my 'ring' doesn't have a fence I haven't recorded anything I've done there. It's completely icey frozen moosh out there - so I can't bring him (or my jumps) out now :(
I made my jumps myself :) so they're pony sized xD
I have some pics from when he was learning though! In the spring I'll get some videos and post them!
My pony at the walking stage of his learning while he was still on lead, stinks the picture doesn't show the target he's reaching for:
This is one of the young girls at the horse rescue I've taught to clicker train - a very wild pony. After months of work her pony will follow her around all sorts of crazy obstacles xD This is them learning ground poles:
honestly, I don't like clicker training. I have never seen it translate well in the saddle.
You must not have looked too far ;) Most clicker trained horses I know are the calmest and most responsive under saddle. I've only backed 2 horses using all CT, but have used it to better more than a few previously trained horses - particularly one Very ring-sour perch cross (would throw total fits just entering the ring).
This is not me, just a video I found on youtube -The mounted work starts around 1:20