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Pushy clicker trained horse and alternative rewards?

This is a discussion on Pushy clicker trained horse and alternative rewards? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • alternative forms of tackless training
  • Clicker training dressage horses

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    02-10-2013, 06:14 PM
  #41
Trained
What about actual riding, like dressage or jumping ? Working the horse, not just playing around with it ?

I have two calm and great horses, both very talented, with out the use of clicker training, I am not convinced. One of my horses was not only on the leader board for multiple years in eventing, winning many many events, but can jump courses with no tack- not even a rope around the neck.
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    02-10-2013, 06:40 PM
  #42
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsygirl    
what about actual riding, like dressage or jumping ? Working the horse, not just playing around with it ?

I have two calm and great horses, both very talented, with out the use of clicker training, I am not convinced. One of my horses was not only on the leader board for multiple years in eventing, winning many many events, but can jump courses with no tack- not even a rope around the neck.
You don't need to use clicker training - no one is telling you you need to :) in fact if you're that dead-set against it, it's probably better off you don't. CT requires just as much consistency, timing and practice as any other form of training. As with most things in life each goal can be met through several different pathways. CT is one of the paths you can take to riding a horse. It is not something to train - it's a style of teaching and learning, it can be used to teach anything.
If you're unsure of how it can be used for professional riding you should look into the Cavalia show, all their horses are trained with a form of positive reinforcement, even the dressage, vaulting and trick jumping horses. I use it to teach my pony unmounted agility, like dog agility, which is a sport in some countries :) I just haven't found any local competitions for him xD
You could also look at the Budweiser Clydesdales who are also Clicker Trained.
Anything a horse CAN learn, can be taught with CT.

The reason you don't see many high level eventers or dressage riders using Clicker training is because they've spent years under professional training using more common-place training and riding styles. While CT is a very old style of training it's not yet commonly used (due to some negative stereotypes) and old horse people being stuck in their ways ;)
But if you look well enough you might spot a rider who uses CT even in the high levels :) They're hard to notice though, because in the show you don't easily see how they're trained - just the results.
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    02-10-2013, 06:45 PM
  #43
Trained
Every time I ask this question I never get a straight answer, as in 'oh here, look this person trained with it and was successful' I am not 'dead set' against anything. I am actually pretty open about most training methods, but I have never seen anything useful besides trick training or ground stuff [like clipper training]. Not any riding training that is useful. The people I know who have tried it undersaddle are not good riders and don't work hard enough at anything to get a good result with anything. Over all, this is why I remain unconvinced. If CT worked so well I think you would see more people using it. Jmo.
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    02-10-2013, 06:59 PM
  #44
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsygirl    
every time I ask this question I never get a straight answer, as in 'oh here, look this person trained with it and was successful' I am not 'dead set' against anything. I am actually pretty open about most training methods, but I have never seen anything useful besides trick training or ground stuff [like clipper training]. Not any riding training that is useful. The people I know who have tried it undersaddle are not good riders and don't work hard enough at anything to get a good result with anything. Over all, this is why I remain unconvinced. If CT worked so well I think you would see more people using it. Jmo.
While I agree - I see too many unmotivated riders using CT and only half training their horses. There are many professionals who do. I don't think many of them come right out and say it though. But I think I was pretty straight forward when I mentioned Cavalia and the Clydesdales. Both of those are trained VERY useful skills. The Clydes drive incredibly well, especially in such large teams. The Cavalia horses do EVERYTHING - from regular tackless riding, to dressage (in pairs), to jumping, to trick jumping, to vaulting and so much more. It's my belief that Stacy Westfall uses a form of CT (or positive reinforcement) - but I don't know if she's ever come out and said it? I believe many professional riders who use CT wouldn't say it too loud due to the 'controversy'. So to say CT isn't used for anything useful is kind of closed minded IMO.
CT can be used for anything. If you want to use it, you can use it to teach any skill mounted or otherwise, useful or otherwise. Don't limit your training to just what you've seen other people do. Just because most people limit CT to tricks (because tricks are fun!!) doesn't mean it needs to be limited to that.

This person is a member of the forum, she's one of my idles ^^ I believe she even uses CT for reining, or at least that's what the video implies :) I don't know if she's taken it professional or not.

This horse learned a simple version of Passage and Piaffe (granted it's unmounted in this video) - but you can see if someone wanted to they could easily use CT for dressage and take this skill under saddle.
     
    02-10-2013, 07:06 PM
  #45
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsygirl    
every time I ask this question I never get a straight answer, as in 'oh here, look this person trained with it and was successful' I am not 'dead set' against anything. I am actually pretty open about most training methods, but I have never seen anything useful besides trick training or ground stuff [like clipper training]. Not any riding training that is useful. The people I know who have tried it undersaddle are not good riders and don't work hard enough at anything to get a good result with anything. Over all, this is why I remain unconvinced. If CT worked so well I think you would see more people using it. Jmo.
A quick google search on professional riders who use clicker training found me this, from a professional clicker trainer:
"I know Jane Savoie uses clicker training some, and if you have
Facebook, you can see this photo of Sue Blinks doing target work with
Flim Flam

Facebook

Also, Beezie Madden has used it with her show jumpers.

Most of these people were introduced to it via Shawna Karrasch, who
Uses it a bit differently, in some respects than Alex does. Most of
These upper level riders use it to sort our trouble spots in their
Training, rather than incorporating it into everything they do. Still
It lends the technology a bit of credibility.

As to people claiming it's only parlour tricks..... well, that shows
They don't understand the concept. Alex has found ways to use it to
Truly transform horses, and I use it as physiotherapy with some of
Mine. We can thank Kay Laurence for the concept of Microshaping, which
Alex took even further, and can benefit many horses.

Conventional training, and the goals and values that govern it assume
That the horse MUST be in a bridle to achieve collection, to learn
Lateral work, etc. Alex has shown us that shaping a horse to balance
His body is no different than shaping a dolphin to swim through a
Hoop. It can be done without physical manipulation. When training
Exclusively with negative reinforcement and punishment, in the form of
Rein contact, rider weight and rider legs, one doesn't have other
Tools available to show the horse how he can organize his body.

Not that my statements will convince the nay-sayers.... Most of us
Find we are best off making our point by example, rather than arguing
About it. We simply thank people for informing us we are crazy, then
Carry on with our craziness, improving our horses and ourselves.
Eventually, the people notice our horse is actually doing pretty well,
Or else they have moved on and forgotten about us completely.

Cheers,
Cindy M (who worked for six months under the skeptical eye of her
Husband... then he finally announced that my "problem horse" had
Become the best one in the barn to handle.)"

As well as
"
There are lots of great people out there who use clicker training. You mentioned Steffan Peters. There is also Beezie Patton-Maddon, Sue Blinks, Jane Savoie. All of these are Olympic Riders. And they are not in the closet about clicker training. Ruth Hogan Paulson has also used clicker training.�


Two years ago, a student of Jane's came to our farm because she was afraid of her horse. In the course of a weekend, I taught her more about clicker training. She went on to be a super team mate for her horse and was accepted into Steffan Peter's NEDA clinic last year. And I might add they looked "Mav-o-lous"


So, don't worry about what's being said. Those are the ones who just don't know.�


Along with the people on this list there are some 2700 on the yahoo group Clickryder. And Equine Clicker Trainer Shawna Karrasch has 4739 friends on facebook.�


Warmly,
Dolores"


That is a list of several professional, successful riders in different sports who use CT. There's my straight answer for you :)
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    02-12-2013, 05:06 PM
  #46
Trained
I could only find small mentions of professionals using clicker training, nothing in enough detail to really understand how and when they use it.
     
    02-12-2013, 05:37 PM
  #47
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsygirl    
i could only find small mentions of professionals using clicker training, nothing in enough detail to really understand how and when they use it.
This is where I begin to get frustrated.

At this point, you are no longer asking with the intent of learning anything. You're only asking to disprove things and attack this method. However, you aren't going to succeed in convincing anyone who has actually used or witnessed correct clicker training that it doesn't work. It is based on science and good research and has been demonstrated over and over again.

You have asked about professionals who do clicker training and received an answer - MANY do use it, though it is in the minority. Honestly, I think it's because there is so much misinformation out there about it and people assuming it's wrong. However, this is just as wrong as me saying that you shouldn't use a bit because it makes you less of a rider. (FYI, I'm not trying to start this argument - I'm simply using it as an example).

Now, you're asking about what they actually do? Go buy a book about clicker training! I've already listed one and there are many instructional materials, just like any other training method. In addition, many of us who use clicker training have offered different ways to approach it. However, in the end, we all guide the horse to what we want it to do by clicking a "yes" and associating it with a reinforcer for each step closer and then extending what they have to do to get a click. And that is exactly what these other professionals do as well.

By the way, other reputable trainers to add to this list are the trainers in the rehab programs for mustangs and inmates. I've read multiple accounts of these trainers teaching through clicker training.
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    02-12-2013, 05:40 PM
  #48
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by PunksTank    
Not that my statements will convince the nay-sayers.... Most of us
Find we are best off making our point by example, rather than arguing
About it. We simply thank people for informing us we are crazy, then
Carry on with our craziness, improving our horses and ourselves.
Eventually, the people notice our horse is actually doing pretty well,
Or else they have moved on and forgotten about us completely.

LOVE this!! So true! I'm actually going to try and host a clicker training clinic for my riding group this summer to SHOW them what clicker training really is and teach them how to use it, since no amount of explaining will ever do it justice!
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    02-12-2013, 05:45 PM
  #49
Yearling
I'm going to have to agree with Gypsygirl on this one. I'd just like to see a video of someone using the clicker under saddle in a working environment. I'm not saying its wrong, but maybe if I could see it being used practically under saddle, I may understand it better..
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    02-12-2013, 05:49 PM
  #50
Showing
To be perfectly honest, I'm inclined to believe that the horse in question (the one the OP worked with) is probably bored out of her mind.

Maybe it's just me, but I've found that the less time you spend just screwing around with the horse, playing games, and the more time you spend giving them something to do, a job, and making them listen to you (not by force/pain/intimidation, but simple pressure and release), the happier they are.
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Tags
biting, clicker training, natural horsemanship, removal of pressure, treats

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