Questions about Clinton Anderson training methods.

You said Identical. Stiffer and two knots is not identical. Plain and simple.

I am willing to agree on similar. I am not willing to agree on identical because they are clearly not identical.

Are you not aware what the word identical means?

How are you cueing her to back?

I have always been told that when a horse turns away from you in this manner it is a disrespect issue and they are not paying attention. Pull her head around to look at you when she does this.

Lol perhaps I should have said 'practically identical' then
In terms of their exercises however, yes I am aware of the meaning of the word identical, and I mean it. There are no 'practical' differences. As I said their personality, their ego's differ. CA is more directly aggressive, more focussed on what he sees as disrespect in his attitude. PP plays the slightly warmer and fuzzier card, but in terms of the actual mechanics they are identical. My challenge stands. You show me something from CA and I will show you the equivalent from PP (or La Cense, Chris Cox etc etc).
My intention is not to say 1 is better than the other, but to simply help people to understand what they are doing and what it achieves rather than simply blindly following an ego. That way they can really expand on their journey as horse people as is they duty we all have to our animals.

I do not get how you can say that you know what identical means and say you mean it and then go on to describe the differences..... sigh.

AB you are being pedantic to avoid the main issue. You can have two cars of the same model. One red and one blue, one with bigger alloys than the other but practically they are the same car. Two knots and a slightly stiffer rope does not make a totally different halter. Let's face it, if there wasn't some difference then he'd have no reason to be able to sell you his halters versus anyone else's. Does it actually make any difference? Not in my experience, once again it's personal preference.

As I say return to the original issue. If you say they are not identical in the exercises then show me and I will stand corrected. I said they present it differently, they label it differently, but the ACTUAL exercises you do with the horse are IDENTICAL. I have studied both over several years and as I say own ALL of the DVDs for both. (I even still have the old VHS versions as well) Wheras, as I understand it you are making a suggestion based on an opinion of watching some of what your husband has been following. I'm not negating your opinion, but it is not based on the full understanding/experience of both 'systems'

The purpose of all groundwork is to get the horse thinking ON you. To get his mind with you and available to you, and optiminally, available in a willing way.

Horse , just like people, can go throught the motions of the "games" or excersizes, without having much mental connection to the handler. They learn the steps to do, and then do them and they get a release. But they are often not mentally really present and there is no real willingness in their compliance. This is the problem with focussin on completeing a game, rather than focussing on the horse and whether or not they are giving you their attention, and how they feel about these games.


Your horse not looking at you to me means that she is still focussed outward, outside of the round pen or whereever you are. It is also possible that you are too close right in front of her, which some horses really don't like.

If you dont' have a round pen to do work at liberty, then when she is on the line and her attention wanders far away do something, (anything, such as scuffling the ground with your boot, tapping your boot with a crop, wiggling the line, etc.) that will interupt that outward facing thought. When she stops looking away, see if she will choose to look at you. If she looks away, interupt that thought. Once you interupt it, let her choose where to look, hoping it will be you. You are not forcing her to look at you, but if she chooosing something else, then you interupt it and give her another chance to choose.

When she looks at you, walk up and pet her nose, ONCE , and then walk awy and give her a break. Or if you are doing the yo yo thingy, get her to take ONE step toward you , then pet her and leave off.

As for backing, she is backing without energy because she sees no reason to expend any more than that. You will have to raise your expectations. If she KNOWs that a wiggle of the line means back up, then you can have higher expectations. Ask, Tell, DEMAND! And get a good , free back up. Watch her feet to see if she picks them up and places them backward as opposed to dragging them backward. If she throws her head up and backs, who cares. It doesn't matter. What you want first is willing backing. Once she is more respectful of your back request, then you may returen to asking lightly and maybe she will back prettier.

But get her to free up her feet and MOVE. However, always ask nicely first, right/?

AGREE AGREE AGREE!!!! ^^Exact method I used with my mare, she still needs that little "bump" to remember where her attention is suppose to be sometimes.

As far as backing, same mare had this problem as well. I thought it was just part of her "I don't want to" attitude, but a month or so later on a vet visit for an absess in her heel, he said "have you noticed this mare has a curve in her spine?" Um..... no....... (insert feeling pathetic and incompetent here) It was just slight enough that he noticed it, but I see her everyday and her condition was so poor when I had gotten her a few months before (I had been so focused on protruding ribs, dragging back feet, and hooves starting to curl up) that I hadn't really paid any attention to her spine!
I point this out because it was keeping her from backing and properly disengaging her hindquarters. Her not backing with effort (when she gave me effort for everything else) was her way of saying "something isn't right".

Here is a picture of it (photoshoped to outline the spine) It looks much worse in the photo than it did in person, but honestly it was nearly a 1/2in deviation. I had noticed that it didn't look right, but like I said she had so many issues, seemed like a new one every time I turned around.

I love Clinton Anderson's methods and I also love Chris Cox both are great and I take and use what both have to teach and offer Chris Is coming to Ky in July and Clinton is coming to Ohio in August I can't wait.

1. Does she look at you when she stands outside your hula hoop? What I would do kinda depends on what she already knows. Does she know YHQ stage 2, I think it is? If she pays attention to you when standing outside the hula hoop, but turns away when you draw her close, I would step around and make her YHQ to get her attention back. Make sure you don't draw her too close either. She may be uncertain if she's really close, ie headshy.

2. I had problems backing my horse too, and then I learned to really whack the rope and sometimes, my horse. If you let them get away with slow backing (after you've taught them the concept) they will do it as long as they can. If she knows what to do but doesn't do it with energy, then increase the intensity of the cue until she really backs with energy. Do not release until she backs with energy. I completely explode (surge forward, big arm movements when cuing) sometimes to get my horse to realize I mean it. That may not be necessary for your horse. "Do what it takes to get the job done." Or something like that.

Hope this helps.

Doe is absolutely right.