Resisting Join Up - Page 3

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Resisting Join Up

This is a discussion on Resisting Join Up within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        05-22-2013, 02:11 AM
    No problem. :)
    I love using join up for the trust it builds and shows.
    That's why I'm so frustrated with my new filly. She's being stubborn with it. I think she needs some new technique or something.
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        05-22-2013, 02:19 AM
    I really wish I could explain how I get them to that point, but I'm very bad at explaining how to do things in words.

    Specific questions yes, but a general overview, not so much. I just, do it.

    I hope you get her figured out, and hopefully she makes a nice mount. I appreciate the time you've taken to educate me.
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    ansinfamily likes this.
        05-22-2013, 11:21 AM
    Originally Posted by ansinfamily    
    No problem. :)
    I love using join up for the trust it builds and shows.
    That's why I'm so frustrated with my new filly. She's being stubborn with it. I think she needs some new technique or something.
    Are you moving back away from her to "draw" her in? Clearly, your body language is telling her to stop and stay where she is. You might want to take a closer look at what you are doing rather than blame the horse for being stubborn. In my experience, horses are pretty smart and generally compliant when they have a clear understanding of what is expected.

    We call them stubborn when we can't reflect critically on our own shortcomings.
        05-22-2013, 11:47 AM
    That's very true. I'm probably the one that needs a new technique. When I stop her I look at her then turn and sometimes start walking away slowly. She will look and sometimes start to want to come to me but then stops. When it doesn't work after a few tries I will go back to stopping her closer to me and close the gap before she stops completely so that I am closer and reach out to her for her praise. Still after doing this a few times and going back to the other way she refuses to join me. Any suggestions of what I could do different with her? I am very open to critiques and guidance. I really love this filly and don't want to "mess her up". :) Thank you
        05-22-2013, 12:06 PM
    After you send her around a couple times, don't ask her to come to a complete stop. When you are done driving her forward and want her to come in to you back away from her. She should turn her hip away and her head towards you, ears forward, curious. Reward the slightest try. If she takes one step forward, praise, praise, praise. IF she totally ignores you, drive her forward more. Then try again.

    You have to pay very close attention to her body language AND yours. Be very specific with your movements and very consistent. Some horses are so sensitive that if you lean forward slightly without even moving your feet they will move off. Play around with her in the pen and see how much of your energy it takes to move her off or draw her in. Start with little subtle movements that you can build on/increase if you need to. If you start off too strong, you have no where to go if they don't comply. If you start off softly, she can respond softly; or you can increase the pressure as needed.
    ansinfamily likes this.
        05-22-2013, 12:12 PM
    Thank you very much. I'll try that today if the weather lets me. Lol.
    She is very easy to start. I know previous to me she had a lot of lunge work but not join up so I think I'm having to gain trust that I'm not pushing her hard like the previous owners. I'll pay closer attention to my body and see what's going on.
    I'll update with my progress. :)
        05-22-2013, 12:21 PM
    IMO, you may be rushing her and not paying attention to her body language. I think she wants to reward her tries but not expect polished work yet. Start observing. Does she turn and take step towards you? Praise her. Does she a few steps and then stop? You could praise then, or change reins and have her canter the other way, then change reins back and forth until she is really winded. THEN, you could demand that she come to the center with you, or it's more work. I know this seems contradicatory, but I don't see stubborn her, just confused.
        05-22-2013, 12:34 PM
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    I don't want to offend either but in the past people have bonded with horses and gained trust and respect without ever needing to do this. Apart from recent years where some people in the UK got hooked into Parelli and Monty Roberts no one had ever heard of it and most still wouldn't do it yet they still produce reliable safe riding horses that do as asked so in my opinion its over rated
    If your filly has some issues of trust with you then why not forget the 'join up' for a while and do more basic groundwork with her so she gets a better understanding and relationship with you. I agree with corporal - she's totally confused and is seeing your 'sending away' as an indication that you don't want her around and then in her eyes you suddenly do want her around but she doesn't understand why any of its happening or any point in it
    Not sure if you use treats for rewards but maybe try standing just a few feet in front of her, ask her to come to you and reward her when she does. You can keep increasing the distance a bit at a time
    Corporal likes this.
        05-22-2013, 12:43 PM
    I've been ground training to fill in the holes in the training of my 7yo QH. I've been loose lunging, then catching his eye to have him walk towards me. He doesn't always walk all of the way. I then talk sweet to him and even pull his halter and tell him to "walk on" to the middle. We sit there and I pet him and say "sweet nothings" sometimes for a good 5 minutes before I push him out to the track again. I know he's doing well when he drops his head and leans on me, like my Lab mix does.
    The "away" to the rail and the "join up" are just obedience exercises. As jaydee said, there are MANY ways to establish trust and train an obedient horse. Most of it just takes some patience and endurance on the trainers part, but I hope my experience might help you. =D
    jaydee likes this.
        05-22-2013, 12:54 PM
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    Not sure if you use treats for rewards but maybe try standing just a few feet in front of her, ask her to come to you and reward her when she does. You can keep increasing the distance a bit at a time
    I don't like even calling this exercise "join up". It implies all sorts of things, none of which I am particularly concerned with. Treats completely defeat the purpose of this exercise, too. The point is to get the horse moving in the direction you want when it is focused on everything else around it except for you. It is great for untouched horses that are loose in the round pen. Your body language tells the horse what to do at a relatively safe distance. When you draw the horse in by backing away, it should yield the hindquarter away from you and step into your direction. Lots of different things are happening during this exercise:

    1) you are establishing yourself as the leader
    2) the horse is learning that he isn't in charge
    3) life is peaceful when you respect the leader
    4) disengaging the hindquarters relieves the stiffness and brace in the horse.
    5) once the horse starts focusing on you he is in a learning frame of mind

    Yes, there are several different ways to achieve the same thing. Not everyone CAN do this with their horse effectively because it takes a ton of self awareness and perfect timing and feel. But, what doesn't when it comes to horses!

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