The Simple Foundations Behind EVERY NH Method (including matching CA and PP) - Page 2

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The Simple Foundations Behind EVERY NH Method (including matching CA and PP)

This is a discussion on The Simple Foundations Behind EVERY NH Method (including matching CA and PP) within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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    06-29-2011, 05:36 AM
Originally Posted by Northern    
Doe, thanks for this helpful comparison of 3 NH orgs, & I find that your 3 strategies are, in fact, what these people use.

The addition of Partnership/Trust/"Want-to" was also my thought, & this, ime, is the difference between the teachers:

Parelli emphasizes, "Anyone can make his horse do something, but can you cause your horse to want to?", "Your horse doesn't care how much you know till he knows how much you care.", "Can you be interesting/provocative to your horse?" etc.

Anderson, on the other hand, makes no such statements that I can recall (if my memory isn't serving me, I'd love some quotes from him!) & I was a "No Worries Club" member for a year. Anderson says, "Get the job done!" This is not to start a fan war, but to point out this all-important difference between any two riders who do have a difference.

La Cense I'm unfamiliar with, so can't comment.

The horse is only happy with a real horseman, who by definition has gone beyond making the horse do tasks, to being a fun & capable leader for his horse.
Yes there is a definate difference in their approach in terms of their presentation, and yes I would agree with what you say here about PP vs CA. That doesn't mean I actually believe it however, but that's a different matter altogether and Not the purpose of this thread.
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    06-29-2011, 05:48 AM
Originally Posted by Northern    
Doe, since I discovered that you're familiar with Klaus Hempfling, would you place him within this NH group?
No absolutely not. His work could not be any more different than it is. Similarly I would not include the likes of Carolyn Resnick or Alexander Nevzorov, Linda Tellington and Robyn or Peggy Cummings. None have any correlation with these NH types.

Stacy Westfall, Monty Roberts, Gawani Pony Boy etc etc would all fall into this category though. Different methods in some areas but basically the same 3 principles as the basis of all their training.

Coming back to Hempfling he works from a completely different perspective, and his goals are totally different also. His work is much less marketable as it's not a step by step system as such. Every horse person would do it a little differently as it's about your presence as much as anything. It's also not just about horses but few people will take the time to really get it, and if you don't get it then you will get hurt, so it's not something you can play at. But that is also why it is so much more effective. To me it is real horsemanship.

I am hoping to work with him again later this year. I could literally write a whole book myself on this way of working, so I'll stop now!! Lol
    06-29-2011, 07:14 AM
Please, tell us more about KH! ;)
    06-29-2011, 12:10 PM
Yes, I agree with Northern, please tell us more about KH!
    06-29-2011, 12:30 PM
Ok posted in main training forum
    06-29-2011, 01:24 PM
Thank you so much!
    06-29-2011, 02:58 PM
Thank you for posting this Doe. It is pretty much as I had believed. I had posted a separate thread about my CA vs Parelli question just a few minutes ago, but basically it comes down to phases and cues and when each moves on. What is satisfactory?

I "get" the principles of it, but I am stuck between two trained by someone else using CA methods and one trained by me using PNH. I'm finding the cues to be somewhat different, the phases to be somewhat different, and I need to meld these or "convert" my CA mare to PNH.

Little nuances seem to be creating confusion, such as...

1) The people who trained my new mare using CA bend slightly at the waist as a cue that they're about to ask the horse to do something. In PNH I was taught to be more upright and send your energy. Going from a relaxed posture to an upright posture was the cue that a request was coming. A relaxed position was more a cue to the horse that I'm NOT asking anything of them...that they're fine where they are. But that seems to confuse my CA mare if I don't give her the "bend" cue first.

2) My PNH mare is almost complete with Level One and my CA mare is on Level Three. But yet my CA mare still requires a lot of energy and what I would call Phase Three or Phase Four energy for backing up. My PNH mare would never be advanced without having the basics down much better than a Phase Three or Phase Four. The problem is that she is so used to only responding to an advanced phase that when I go at her in sequence, it's almost as if it's a test to stand still until she gets her familiar Phase Four. Then she moves without any problem.

I'm trying to avoid reviewing all of the CA stuff to see the minute differences. I don't even know if CA uses phases, so maybe it's irrelevant in that aspect. I know his motto is more "get it done" so perhaps finesse isn't focused on as much. Can you elaborate on anything you know about that part of it?

I'm really just wanting to communicate with my CA mare in the manner that I'm more accustomed to without having to start her from scratch. She's a very fine mare and I don't want to confuse her or myself any further lol.

My horses are used for pleasure and trail riding. We'll never show (although my DD will probably use the CA mare for amateur events, playdays, etc). We don't do dressage, or even ride English for that matter.

    06-29-2011, 04:21 PM
Rockin D

Thank you for this post. It's fascinating to read, and very useful to see such a perspective where you have the circumstances to directly compare to horses which are products of both methods.

Firstly do not worry, this is a simple matter to resolve without confusing your mare.

These differences I would suggest are a result of two variances.

1) differences in how the method is presented (ie how the learning materials are structured) between CA and PNH.

2) natural differences in any two people working with horses.

Let's look at the first. In terms of phases you are correct CA places less direct emphasis in his materials and shows that PNH does. He still states that you want reaction at the lightest request, but he does not break it down into phases as religiously as PNH does. Add to this the emphasis on 'getting it done' and complying with 'energy' and you can see how less experienced people might go straight to 4 all the time. Ultimately however when you use phases and exercises like these, it is not so much communication as conditioning. (not criticising just highlighting the important differences). Just like children if you always count to 4 then they will eventually start ignoring the first 3 count. The NH way to deal with this is to sometimes and unpredictably go straight from phase 1 to phase 4. That way the horse has still had the opportunity to react at 1 and learns not to assume he can wait through 2 and 3.

Now let's look at the second point. I am not aware of any bending at the waist in CA or maybe I'm just not clear on what you mean. The only thing I can think of is that often when asking for a hind yield many people will bend down, as if to make it more obvious to the horse that they are looking at the hind leg. As far as I have seen CA usually asks for a back up with very strong energy and very upright just as PNH. So I suspect this might be simply a personal issue relating to a lack of body awareness with the previous trainer.

I would recommend that you simply stick to what you know, which is maintaining the clarity between relaxed 'shrugged' body posture meaning relax, and upright strong energy, meaning do something now please.

Ultimately if you really want to communicate with your horses then all you have to remember is this. Horses read intention better than any predator can.

The actual signal is not important as long as you in your mind and body are clear as to what you intend to ask for, and are there in the now. Not yesterday, not what you have to do later, not what that noise is going on in the distance, the there and now, just you and that horse. Then the horse will quickly work it out for itself. That also why we cannot hide from horses they see us for who we really are at that moment.

I hope this helps in some way.
    06-29-2011, 05:20 PM

Thank you. That was VERY helpful. I think you nailed it that it has more to do with the training methods of this specific trainer. From what you described, the differences in the NH methods are fairly insignificant. So, armed with that knowledge, I am going to continue on with what I know.

This little mare is a quick learner and eager to please so I don't think it will take long for us to get this straightened out.

I also appreciate the tip on varying the sequence of the phases. I must have been getting a snack during that part because I don't remember it lol. I use a fairly rapid succession though so they don't have a whole lot of time to sit and anticipate. I will definitely give that a shot.

Thanks again!
    06-29-2011, 08:28 PM
I also have never seen CA teach to bend at the waist.

Wonderful answers, Doe! :)

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