The Simple Foundations Behind EVERY NH Method (including matching CA and PP) - Page 4
 
 

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The Simple Foundations Behind EVERY NH Method (including matching CA and PP)

This is a discussion on The Simple Foundations Behind EVERY NH Method (including matching CA and PP) within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Mark bannister andalusian stallions

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    08-16-2011, 05:14 AM
  #31
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe    
Kiwigirl

That's a fair point. Yes he does sell books (2 currently print) as do many clinicians. I would not however compare for example Mark Rashid with the marketing machine of Parelli. Books, DVD's, Savvy Club, (gold, silver and bronze versions), their own saddles and tack etc etc. As I said fair point though I see your perspective.

Anyway that aside my comment was in relation to how he approaches the horse and what his intentions are and goals in working with the horse. These are completely different from the assumptions and attitude underlying CA or PPs work.

Incidentally glad you enjoyed what you saw.
Yes, your absolutely right, I went off on a bit of a tangent sorry, about that! I really did enjoy what I saw! It was the fact that I enjoyed it so much that inspired me to try to learn more. Unfortunately learning more is Waaay beyond my price range. I have to say, and I am sorry to be a nag but it really Pisses me off that the defining line between what sort of relationship one individual has with a horse as opposed to another individual is MONEY.

You said that his intentions and goals are completely different from those of PP and CA but I still don't see that. As far as I can tell, exactly like PP and CA, Hempflings intentions and goals are to make AS MUCH MONEY as possible. If he truly was coming from a holistic and healing place, if what he truly wanted for horses throughout the world was for them to be understood and treated in the way he believes they should be then it should be important to him that as many people as possible have access to what he knows. As it is, I believe that he, like PP and CA is a talented horseman, I am convinced he has a few tricks up his sleeve but as a person he is absolutely unbelievable. What kind of person of hints and teases people, dangling the carrot of knowledge and then robs them blind?
     
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    08-16-2011, 06:33 AM
  #32
Doe
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwigirl    
Yes, your absolutely right, I went off on a bit of a tangent sorry, about that! I really did enjoy what I saw! It was the fact that I enjoyed it so much that inspired me to try to learn more. Unfortunately learning more is Waaay beyond my price range. I have to say, and I am sorry to be a nag but it really Pisses me off that the defining line between what sort of relationship one individual has with a horse as opposed to another individual is MONEY.

You said that his intentions and goals are completely different from those of PP and CA but I still don't see that. As far as I can tell, exactly like PP and CA, Hempflings intentions and goals are to make AS MUCH MONEY as possible. If he truly was coming from a holistic and healing place, if what he truly wanted for horses throughout the world was for them to be understood and treated in the way he believes they should be then it should be important to him that as many people as possible have access to what he knows. As it is, I believe that he, like PP and CA is a talented horseman, I am convinced he has a few tricks up his sleeve but as a person he is absolutely unbelievable. What kind of person of hints and teases people, dangling the carrot of knowledge and then robs them blind?
Kiwi I understand your position but I know nothing of his personal or financial goals. Other than the old DVDs which were originally German VHS and done as documentaries (which I would not necessarily recommend) he doesn't have any box sets or clubs to join. (a DVD set has been talked of for several years now it'll be at least another 2 years away I believe)

The books are excellent though and I would recommend them.

Coming back to my comments what I mean is their approach when with the horse is different. How they handle horses, how they approach them, the assumptions they make, and what they are looking to 'create'.

For example NH methods all focus on yielding to direct pressure and suggestion. It's the first exercises you do. This is not the approach for KFH. In fact the approach will be different for each horse depending on what the need is. The only consistent first step is about establishing your position of dominance, but that is not done via physical contact as in PP, CA etc.

Ca especially is tying to create a product almost. His horses all come out looking the same, acting the same, almost robotic. Its micro-management and drilling. That's fine if that's what you want, and it might not be great for the horses but I can see how it's attractive to people who are new or scared of horses and want a 'twist and go' product. KFH is focussed on developing the horse whilst maintaining the spirit and essence of the horse. It's a very different perspective.
     
    08-16-2011, 06:24 PM
  #33
Yearling
I, like others on this thread would love to explore more of KH methods. You seem to have a very good understanding of his methods. Were you able to learn a lot from his books? You said earlier you wish to spend more time with him, so obviously you have attended at least one of KH's clinics. I know that there is nothing like learning from someone in the flesh but for someone like myself who really can't fork out $78,000NZ to attend his school is there actually any point in purchasing his books when everything else is so far beyond my price range?

Man, I am sorry I can not seem to stop this from coming across as inflammatory. I am so sorry, I understand what your saying about his methods, that they are coming from a totally different place than NH trainers. What I am trying to say is that for the majority of people on this forum it is a moot point. The sheer logistics of trying to find the thousands of dollars to study KH methods is prohibitive. Unless YOU are going to get on this training forum and begin passing on what you have probably paid a lot of money to learn, for free, all you are doing is pontificating.

Here is what I think happens. People go on the net and find youtube clips of KH with his fairy tale horses (lets face it he always seems to be working with the "fairy tale" horses, Lusitano, Andalusian stallions) and they want the fairy tale. They then find out how much it is going to cost them to buy the fairy tale. So after they have regained consciousness and picked themselves up off the floor they then look for something more attainable. Enter Pat Parelli and Clinton Anderson.

Right or wrong, good or bad, Natural and traditional forms of horsemanship are going to remain the predominant and prevailing forms of horsemanship used by the general horse owner populace. Until some willing spirit steps up and makes it the goal to educate people in a better way, with no thought to how much money they can take from people.

Doe, you have often given the impression that you are disapproving of the negative reinforcement pushed by the NH movement. Fine, you know a better way so teach us. I would say that a good 80% of the horse owning population want to experience what KH has achieved, I would say that maybe only 5% of said population will ever be able to afford it. Unless someone comes forward and decides that it is important, for the sake of the horse, that this information becomes if not 'freely' available then at least affordable for the general population. Other wise it is just horse snobbery and elitism.

You may as well be saying "You guys driving your Toyota's and what not have never experienced REAL driving until you have owned a Lamborghini! You need to get yourself a Lamborghini to really understand driving!" I would totally agree with you, I would crave a Lamborghini, yearn for one, but in the end I would still be driving my Toyota.

Again my apologies for being repeatedly ignorant about this (it seems to be my nature).
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    08-17-2011, 04:56 AM
  #34
Doe
Weanling
Kiwigirl

I know that there is nothing like learning from someone in the flesh but for someone like myself who really can't fork out $78,000NZ to attend his school is there actually any point in purchasing his books when everything else is so far beyond my price range?

That's like me saying, well im not going to bother looking at Parelli unless I can afford the money and time to take up a years internship in Florida. My horsemanship journey will hopefully continue until the day I die. I am not reliant on any one person for that journey. I like what KFH does. I am not KFH and I don't do it the same way. That's the thing. Its the principle and the approach that is important. How you get there will be different for each person and horse. Like sportsmen at the top of their game they perhaps give us regular people faith we are in the ballpark at least. They show us what is possible. Its like the cliche of the four minute mile. Bannister was the first. Man had been around for how many thousand years and never ran the 4 minute mile? (im sure somone did chased by a tiger! Lol) Then the next year, 2 or 3 people did the same and the year after 30 + people did it. Belief was the only change.

What I am trying to say is that for the majority of people on this forum it is a moot point. Unless YOU are going to get on this training forum and begin passing on what you have probably paid a lot of money to learn, for free, all you are doing is pontificating.

This is a discussion forum. I am quite happy to and indeed try to relay anything that I know or any different perspective I may have to offer. However due to the nature of the forum, some subjects are less well accepted than others. This means that there are some people who want to discuss subjects such as KFH but feel unable to do so. I have regular and lengthy private conversations and discussion groups with some of those people already. So I think its fair to say I try as best I can.

Here is what I think happens. People go on the net and find youtube clips of KH with his fairy tale horses (lets face it he always seems to be working with the "fairy tale" horses, Lusitano, Andalusian stallions)

In his early stuff yes - it was filmed in the pyrenees after all. That's like me filming with QHs in the US, its the predominant breed. However he works with all breeds (as the new book and more recent videos show) and I have certainly never worked with an Andalusian (would be nice lol).

They then find out how much it is going to cost them to buy the fairy tale. So after they have regained consciousness and picked themselves up off the floor they then look for something more attainable. Enter Pat Parelli and Clinton Anderson.

Cost wise (dollars, pounds etc) it is no more expensive to buy his books than any of the others. If it is less attainable it is only because it requires a lot more thought understanding and investment of yourself. Commitment if you like. The CA and PP systems are like paint by numbers and require (indeed often encourage) little thought. There is very little focus on feel, timing or working with the horse. It is an attempt as is our culture these days, to dumb down horsemanship to meet the lowest common denominator. To make it easy. To take shortcuts. No offence to anyone who works with PP or CA. I have done both myself. It can be used intelligently and creatively, however my point is that it is largely not. It is designed to be popular. That is its primary focus.

Right or wrong, good or bad, Natural and traditional forms of horsemanship are going to remain the predominant and prevailing forms of horsemanship used by the general horse owner populace. Until some willing spirit steps up and makes it the goal to educate people in a better way, with no thought to how much money they can take from people.

There is no definitive right way. There is no better way. There is the way we each believe is better. I nor KFH nor anyone else can educate. Ony we can educate ourselves. The best I can do (and any true educator or trainer) is to pose questions. Questions that others can pick up and work with or ignore. If any of those questions help others to see a new perspective, or to find a new solution for them, great. If not, hey ho.

Doe, you have often given the impression that you are disapproving of the negative reinforcement pushed by the NH movement.

I disapprove of what it has become. Some elements of negative reinforcement are almost unavoidable at times. There is nothing wrong with that per se. My issue is when I watch people like CA. I find him truly offensive (and bear in mind I own every one of his DVDs and have seen him live several times.) He stands there talking about this disrespectful horse (who usually is some timid QH who's already stood there quietly) and then proceeds to chase it around waving his stick and yanking on its head. Some horses may need that fair enough. Yet its the assumed technique for every horse. It is sheer aggression and careful selection of the horse that works. EVERYTHING the horse does is micro managed EXCEPT for standing still. Then it is all hidden under the pretence that he is speaking horse and this is kinder to the horse than more traditional methods!

He is a role model for horsemanship like Jordan should be a role model for teenage girls. As I say its all down to what you want. Some people consider those to be well trained, respectful horses. I consider them broken. I have seen some good working cowboys train horses. The principles might be similar, but the application and approach is very different. They have well trained working horses without CA's ego or aggression towards the horse.

Sorry rant over, I typically try to avoid character assassination, but just to be clear over what I disagree with. Its not negative reinforcement per se, its how it is applied and the assumption that it is the only way and every horse is the same and wants to dominate you unless we keep it in its place.

Again my apologies for being repeatedly ignorant about this

Not at all, discussion is what we are here for. Don't be reliant on any one trainer. You don't need books or DVD's especially in these days. You have everything you need already. You just need a horse, a clear mind and your body. Start with that.
     
    08-17-2011, 05:42 AM
  #35
Yearling
I think Kiwi makes a good point. To add to it, in the Western US anyway (not so much the UK), you couldn't get out of bed without stepping on a natural horsemanship clinician or smaller-name trainers who taught those methods. TTEAM, Centred Riding, and a few other things are also around and fairly accessible, as their exponents have made an effort to train people to be trainers using those methods.

I think you really need to learn horsemanship from an actual person, rather than a book. The books seem more useful once you have acquired a foundation in whatever method it is, rather than learning the method cold from the book. Like I said in a PM, it's well and good to see him passaging alongside his Andalusian stallion, but the connection between that and what I can do with my horse isn't very clear. If myself and the horse were in an arena with him, it would undoubtedly be much clearer. I suppose the point I am making is that while these methods seem very cool and like they have a lot of potential, they're just not very accessible because there aren't many people about who do them and who can pass them on.
     
    08-17-2011, 06:15 AM
  #36
Doe
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesilverspear    
I think you really need to learn horsemanship from an actual person, rather than a book. The books seem more useful once you have acquired a foundation in whatever method it is, rather than learning the method cold from the book. Like I said in a PM, it's well and good to see him passaging alongside his Andalusian stallion, but the connection between that and what I can do with my horse isn't very clear. If myself and the horse were in an arena with him, it would undoubtedly be much clearer. I suppose the point I am making is that while these methods seem very cool and like they have a lot of potential, they're just not very accessible because there aren't many people about who do them and who can pass them on.
I do understand both you and Kiwis point. Part of the issue with people like KFH is that people often dismiss what they do not understand. Snapshots (like you tube videos) again often give the wrong impression or an incomplete one.

I have to say however his books are complete. You absolutely can (I certainly did) learn such an approach from two of the three books alone. Is it easy? Not necessarily. Is it scary? Probably. Is it frustrating? At times yes. Is it a challenge? Yes continually. It can however be done.

As I said before the books are not simply a step by step method (though steps are there) because the approach is never a step by step approach. That's like having a step by step guide to how to chat up girls! Lol

That is my point. We are so used to been spoon fed, that we are never forced to work things out. I see so many people blindly following methods with no actual understanding of how they work, why they work, or what they are working towards. That scares me. Join-up is the perfect example. We see many people on here relating how they want to join-up. Why? No real reason. They just think they should, or they want to give it a go. It is not the most appropriate tool selected for the job they need to do. Instead It is something to try without any regard for the potential issues it may cause (even injury if they get charged as I've seen often) That's no knocking join-up it's just an example of how things are used without any thought.

It's great to study lots of different trainers and methods, but what is the point if we do not take the time to truly understand what it is they are doing. When we understand the how and why then we can adjust it, refine it, adapt it to apply to any situation that might occur. They become tools we can select from, rather than using a kitchen knife to undo a screw when a screwdriver would do the job more effectively and without damage. Without this we will always need a trainer nearby, or the latest DVD. Without it we cannot progress.
     
    08-19-2011, 09:16 PM
  #37
Started
Doe, any thoughts on KFH's 26 "horsenalities" vs PNH's 4 (main) ones? I corresponded with KFH office on this question, & the upshot was that KFH didn't want to know about PNH's 4 main ones, so there was no possibility of finding if & how the two "maps" might synchronize.
     

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