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post #21 of 180 Old 06-23-2009, 10:41 PM
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Audra, That is what I feel many horse owners are doing. They need to learn that horses are huge wild animals, not humans.
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post #22 of 180 Old 06-24-2009, 10:25 AM
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Ceaser's method really does work for some dogs. I work at a vet clinic in the kennels and I use his ideas all the time. However, the force he uses works on the dogs b/c they are a PREDATOR. Force, punishment, etc. does not work on PREY animals b/c they don't understand it. They only understand that the human is acting like a predator, so they don't trust that.

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Originally Posted by Audra0729 View Post
my 2 year old got smacked often when he was a yearling =/ he KNEW better yet continued to try to plow me over. He's better now but I had to use my crop on him a few times for him to understand what "mom's bubble" was.
He never did it out of spite, he just wanted to be AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to me, like everyone said they don't understand that they can hurt you so easily.

"natural" is using their communication tools to work with them and establish an understading. Like what Cesar Millan does.... he uses force when needed but does it in the same way a pack leader would out in the wild. They understand their ways because horses are horses, THEY AREN'T HUMANS, they don't understand our ways, so don't treat them like they are "one of us".
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post #23 of 180 Old 06-24-2009, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirithorse View Post
Ceaser's method really does work for some dogs. I work at a vet clinic in the kennels and I use his ideas all the time. However, the force he uses works on the dogs b/c they are a PREDATOR. Force, punishment, etc. does not work on PREY animals b/c they don't understand it. They only understand that the human is acting like a predator, so they don't trust that.
You've never seen horses use force with each other?

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post #24 of 180 Old 06-24-2009, 10:38 AM
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No I haven't. I've seen horses give each other plenty of warning, and if the horse doesn't move, the horse gets a kick, bite, etc. They use phases. That is not force. Force gives the animal no other choice. Force is predatory, and horses are obviously not predatory animals. Kicking and biting looks extreme to us, but it's just a part of how the herd establishes dominance. It works for them because the alpha is ANOTHER PREY ANIMAL. When a PREDATOR smacks a horse or inflicts any other kind of punishment, that's where it doesn't work. Horses are already born not trusting people, it's in their DNA, and if we punish and force them, the relationship will never be where it could be because the human is not acting "like a horse."
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post #25 of 180 Old 06-24-2009, 10:46 AM
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No I haven't. I've seen horses give each other plenty of warning, and if the horse doesn't move, the horse gets a kick, bite, etc. They use phases. That is not force. Force gives the animal no other choice. Force is predatory, and horses are obviously not predatory animals. Kicking and biting looks extreme to us, but it's just a part of how the herd establishes dominance. It works for them because the alpha is ANOTHER PREY ANIMAL. When a PREDATOR smacks a horse or inflicts any other kind of punishment, that's where it doesn't work. Horses are already born not trusting people, it's in their DNA, and if we punish and force them, the relationship will never be where it could be because the human is not acting "like a horse."
Do you realize that you just contradicted yourself? A kick or a bite IS force, what else would it be called?

Humans use plenty of warning and "phases" when dealing with horses too. We don't just immediately kick or smack our horses. If my horse is being a jerk at the hitching post, I'll nudge him, push him, tell him no, and if none of that works, he gets a smack.

People preach "natural horsemanship" but then balk if a human dares assert his or her dominance in the herd by doing the same thing a head mare would do: a pinch, smack, or kick. Nothing I do to my horse with just my hand is ever going to be as FORCEFUL as a kick from another horse.

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post #26 of 180 Old 06-24-2009, 11:00 AM
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"If the horse is afraid, then work with him and show him that he has nothing to fear from you and he can depend on you for support. Never punish a horse for spooking or being scared because it will only make the problem worse. If the horse is aggressive or spoiled, often there will come a point when the only choice is you or him. Many times, that means hurting him before he hurts you. Although, once he stops the undesirable action, then you must stop the reprimand."

Sometimes, you do have to show a horse that even though it is a partnership, you are still the majority stockholder and make all the decisions. There really isn't anything "unnatural" about hitting a horse when it misbehaves, you just have to know when a good pop will be needed and when it doesn't fit the situation. The thing that is unnatural about the old "cowboy" training technique is the whole force the saddle on them, step aboard, and beat them until they submit thing. I have seen that many times and hate it.

Always remember that feeling of looking at a big, open country over the ears of a good horse, seeing a new trail unwind ahead of you, and that ever-spectacular view from the top of the ridge!!! Follow my training blog: http://robertsontraining.blogspot.com/
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post #27 of 180 Old 06-24-2009, 11:00 AM
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No, I did not contradict myself. You aren't understanding what I'm saying. It's all in the way the horse sees the human......and it's not in the same way he sees his alpha horse. It's in the energy we produce when we correct a horse. I never yell, I never smack, I never kick, I never jerk, any of that stuff. And my warmblood came to me a labeled biter, kicker, man hater and was said to be dangerous, vicious and unpredictable. When he did try to bite I NEVER smacked him. You can't get away with punishing a horse when he is giving you feedback, which is what a horse is doing when he bites, kicks, etc. It's because WE did something to cause that reaction. So for our mistake, the horse gets punished for it? I don't think so. My warmblood never even thinks about biting now. That's because I found out what the trigger was for his biting and worked on fixing the real issue, not just ignoring his feelings and punishing him when he tried to tell me how he was feeling about what was going on. Horses give us plenty of warning before they bite. If someone chooses to ignore the horse, well, it's their own fault if they get bitten. It's not the horse's fault the person wasn't paying attention.
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post #28 of 180 Old 06-24-2009, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirithorse View Post
I've seen horses give each other plenty of warning, and if the horse doesn't move, the horse gets a kick, bite, etc. They use phases. That is not force. Force gives the animal no other choice.
Where I work, this is called the "Use of Force Continuum". And realistically, if a horse genuinelly didn't want to do something, we puny humans couldn't force them to.

Always remember that feeling of looking at a big, open country over the ears of a good horse, seeing a new trail unwind ahead of you, and that ever-spectacular view from the top of the ridge!!! Follow my training blog: http://robertsontraining.blogspot.com/
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post #29 of 180 Old 06-24-2009, 11:07 AM
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I'm not talking about forcing the horse from a phycical perspective. I'm talking about mental force.....some horses, if you are forceful enough and intimidate them enough, they will comply. It's very, very sad to see.
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post #30 of 180 Old 06-24-2009, 11:12 AM
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That is why it is so important to realize when a punishment fits the situation and when it is just a misunderstanding. Understanding a horse is key and not all horses can be trained without a little bit of force. Some are aggressive from the day they are born and humans had nothing to do with it.

Always remember that feeling of looking at a big, open country over the ears of a good horse, seeing a new trail unwind ahead of you, and that ever-spectacular view from the top of the ridge!!! Follow my training blog: http://robertsontraining.blogspot.com/
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