Something to ponder - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 46 Old 03-18-2013, 02:13 AM
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loosie, I am by no means a NH expert, but I believe what is supposed to happen is that you give the small aid first then progress to whaking the clip around. After a few repititions the horse gets the picture and walks back calmly from the first wiggle of the finger. That is what happened to my pony, anyway.

smrobs, that fascinating! I never knew. I always thought the purpose was simply to have a way of backing the horse from a distance, say, backing the horse out of the float while you stand up the top.
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post #32 of 46 Old 03-18-2013, 08:27 AM
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Horses do not need endless 'ground-work' --- some owners do --- they're just safer there than on Dobbin's back. Horses do quite well learning good manners in a brief lesson or two and then made to respect those manner every single time they are handled. Horse do very well under saddle with no more ground-work than that. It is my opinion that:

"Those than can - ride. Those that can't -- invent more ground-work and more reasons NOT to ride."

Personally, I think their time would be better spent learning better riding skills so they could become more EFFECTIVE, more CONFIDENT and more SKILLED riders. Then, we also would not see all of the horses that are so sour and mad at endless 'picking' at them on the ground from doing endless and mindless ground-work. JMHO
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post #33 of 46 Old 03-18-2013, 09:57 PM
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Yes, agree it can be absolutely that way in so many situations. And now I think about it, as it is generally safer to be on the ground with them, I think in many ways groundwork is more about handler skills, practice, confidence, effectiveness... & in some cases an excuse not to ride But I do think it's very helpful for overall training of the horse too & depends on the horse & 'problem' in question as to how much it may be needed. And horses who's owners have neglected ground manners are a pain to deal with.... but the 'endless, mindless' stuff... pointless, boring stuff... often for the horse at least like only riding in little circles & patterns in an arena - I personally think that it's better for the horse if there's a purpose, a job to do.
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post #34 of 46 Old 03-18-2013, 10:21 PM Thread Starter
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There is a general concensus to back a horse out of one's space. Backing isn't a movement preferred by a horse as it's designed for forward movement. What I've found for the horse that's wants to invade my space is to move his front end. When he invades, turn and start walking with him and suddenly change direction. He'll get a good yank on the halter but when this is done four or five times he'll start being pretty mindful and will stay back in anticipation of that hard turn. When I stop, he's happy to stay out of my space. This worked to well with a dog that continually got ahead of me that I tried it with a pushy horse. It worked so well it was almost too easy.
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post #35 of 46 Old 03-18-2013, 10:54 PM
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I don't care whether they back, turn, sidepass... roll out of my space when asked, so long as they do it!
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post #36 of 46 Old 03-19-2013, 05:56 PM
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I think a lot of natural horsemanship is tricks, sadly. I believe this is a consequence of many clinicians selling quick-fixes and methods; rather than teaching people to see and analyse behavior, and learning the why's and when's when it comes to methods. Not just the how's! Most people learn how to do a bunch of stuff, but they have no clue why they need to do it, when they need to do it or when not do do it.

I was watching RFD one night. I've forgotten the trainer's name; but he was going to demonstrate how his horse willingly stayed with him; how the horse wanted to be with him. To demonstate this, he had the horse run loose around him in a circle. And the horse ran around him in a circle just fine - while swishing his tail and pinning his ears..! So much for willingness and a good relationship. I wish they would just call a shovel for a shovel, and don't sell tricks as horsemanship.
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post #37 of 46 Old 04-05-2013, 02:43 PM Thread Starter
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What Pat Parelli is trying to teach is the philosophy behind what he teaches and he uses a myriad of examples to back it up. But you need to understand what he is trying to tell you not just do as you think he does. He has moved mountains in eliminating cruelty and continues to try to get people to see horses as the unique animals they are.
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post #38 of 46 Old 04-05-2013, 06:25 PM
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In other words, "Follow what the Master seeks, not the Master"
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post #39 of 46 Old 04-05-2013, 07:41 PM Thread Starter
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Hey, I see in another training thread someone has posted a video of Warwick Shiller doing as I tried to explain about moving the horse's front end.
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post #40 of 46 Old 04-06-2013, 12:53 AM
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People can believe what they want, but I've seen Parelli do things to a horse that would have gotten him shot on my grandfather's place and are certainly NOT how to deal with a horse. He is so stuck on his methode working and working quickly that he'll push a situation and even do things that are at best risky if things don't progress the way he wants them to.

A good example (that I was not there to see) was his demonstration of getting stallion to accept a bridle at the UK's Royal Festival of the Horse. At the end of his demonstration the horse still had not taken the bridle and all Parelli had accomplished was to make the horse more difficult to handle at the time and physically damaged it so that the vet said the horse couldn't be used for the next days demonstration. What amazes me is Parelli fans thinking that what he did was ok . It's sad when people are so unrealistic about something that they "can't see the forest for the trees".

That is NOT how training a horse naturally is done. We all get frustrated when a horse becomes difficult and won't learn or accept what we are wanted to teach it. Forcing the issue is no better than going back to the wild west way of breaking horses through force (which is exactly what Pat was doing with that stallion). Some of what Parelli does works with some horses, but you'll never hear him admit that it doesn't work with all of them and that sometimes you have to do things more slowly and/or use a different methode.

Of course the same can be said of the packaged training system for sale and promoted by every "natual" horse trainer I've seen. They are all right and they are all wrong. They are right in that they all say you can train a horse with trust, time and patience. They are wrong because they all say that you can train every horse "their" way. (but then they wouldn't be selling much if they said their way doesn't work with every horse )

I've watched Parelli do things that weren't working and do things that didn't need to be and shouldn't have been done. Seen some of his "certified" instructors spend an hour failing at something that I spent 20 minutes to have success at with the same horse. Why do Parelli trainers come out so brainwashed thinking they now know the better way? I know why Pat doesn't admit his way doesn't always work (wouldn't sell if he did).

One trainer, who is of course a huge fan of Parelli (also really wonderful person and good friend of mine), as since acknowledge that I've made faster progress with the horses I'm working with than could have been done with them using Pat's techniques. (He's coming around to reality....just takes time to show them ) Horses are individuals and what works with one might not work with the other.

Don't get into lock step using anyone's training system. The biggest things you need for training any horse is common sense, patience, knowing the horse and having it trust you.
There is a right way, but you won't see anyone packaging it for sale. It's the way the gets the job done with the least amount of stress. That could mean 5 different ways to teach 5 different horses the same thing.

Pat or any of the other people who are marketing a system are not bad people. I'm sure they do have a good understanding of horses, but they've become so hung up on "their" way being the only "right" way. When it's often not the right way and in some cases absolutely the wrong way.

Understanding horses in general, but more importantly the specific horse your dealing with.
Common sense about what's working, being able to see when something is not going to work and adjusting to something that works better.
Patience so that you don't move faster than the horse is ready to accept and knowing when to stop as soon as frustration starts.
Trust is something the horse needs to have in you and you'll need to cultivate and maintain it. Gain it and keep it.
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They're always going to be bigger and stronger so you better always be smarter. (One of my grandfather's many pearls of wisdom)
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