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Stereotypes about NH and how to overcome them

This is a discussion on Stereotypes about NH and how to overcome them within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
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    12-18-2012, 11:44 AM
  #21
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Racer    
When clicker training was first introduced for horses, I remember people denigrating it quite a bit. I never used it, but was intrigued. I knew it had been used on dogs quite successfully, so of course was interested to see how well it worked on horses.
I've used it on 6 very different horses, from my very nervous/flighty draft mare, my playful brilliant pony (with some serious aggression issues), a fearful and aggressive pony stud, teaching two minis to drive team (one is blind!), and a 2 year old stud colt (now gelded) - just teaching him the basics of how to be a good horse.
I've found it very useful for aggressive horses as it leaves their minds focused on something positive to work for, rather than asking for a fight or test of dominance. I also find it works especially well for fearful horses who have a tendency to have 'melt downs' where they just short circuit and can't focus anymore. It helps keep their focus on small, simple skills that they already know - with clear enjoyable rewards keeping them focused on the positive.

But back to the original topic ;) didn't mean to hijack..
     
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    12-18-2012, 11:46 AM
  #22
Showing
I don't think it's off topic, Punk. After all, isn't the thread about alternate training methods? Clicker training certainly fits that description.
     
    12-18-2012, 01:07 PM
  #23
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Racer    
Don't act crazy or harass people about being 'cruel' who prefer different training methods. You respect my training methods, and I'll respect yours. You call me 'cruel', 'uncivilized' or a 'gunsel', and I'm going to think you're a moronic crackpot and dismiss anything else you have to say.

The problem I have with the NH label is that too many people think they've reinvented the wheel. Those ideas aren't just hundreds, but thousands of years old, and anyone who uses true traditional training has already incorporated the basic ideas into their regimen.
So...uh... tell us how you REALLY feel there Speed.

Actually, harsh as it may be, I must agree whole heartedly with your sentiments....
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    12-18-2012, 01:10 PM
  #24
Showing
Oh Farm, that's my diplomatic opinion. I just don't think my unvarnished one would be appropriate for young children or the faint of heart.
     
    12-18-2012, 09:52 PM
  #25
Foal
I use NH. Really believe in it, although you can take that for what is worth being I'm fairly new to actually working with horses. What I've noticed is that some of the NH gurus like Buck Branaman, the Dorrances, and Mr. Hunt are very nice to horses and people. However, I usually get treated a lot more poorly by the NH people I know in the real world where I live, than the ones who train the other way. If I press on this issue the response I get is "I'm just being an advocate for the horse". At that point when I point out the hypocrisy, THEN it just gets worse.....
     
    12-18-2012, 10:11 PM
  #26
Super Moderator
I think that one reason NH is not always given much credence by traditional persons is that they do not see how it is useful to their purposes.
They do not see how having a horse circle around you , unconnected , has any relevance to lunging for strength and building muscles to carry a bit and stay balanced and such. How having a horse stand on a pedestal has anything to do with having a horse go down a trail and cross a creek. How having a horse walk beside you wiht 6 feet of loose rope draping will be at all helpful if they have always lead the horse by holding just below the halter and never had any real issues doing such.

As long as NH is seen as an ends in itself, instead of a means to bringing the horse into better use to the human, then it will not be relevant to an awful lot of horsemen/women.
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    12-18-2012, 10:20 PM
  #27
Yearling
As I have said on other posts I learned NH after I had already learned the “traditional” Australian style and spent my time doing it working cattle on cattle stations. It took a while, but by the time I was 18 I was doing all NH and moving into the Californio hackamore stuff. And MAN did I cop some flak for it. You would not believe the amount of times I would have people tell me things like
“you can’t ride in a hackamore in the bush”
Or
“you can’t ride in a slick fork saddle on the bush”
Or
“if you have reins like that [mecate] if you get thrown you will get hung up in them and dragged”
Or
“fenders go over the bars of the tree, if you get hung up they won’t come off the saddle like stirrup leathers will off a stock saddle and you will get dragged”
Or
“All that lateral lounging stuff is a waste of time”
Or
“all that stuff is a short cut training horses, it will come undone one day”
And the list goes on. What I would do when I heard this sort of rubbish is to look around where I was riding, which was usually with a mob of cattle in THE BUSH and point out that I was in fact doing on a daily basis everything that they were telling me I couldn’t do. This would then usually bring about one of two retorts: 1) “Nah, I mean the REAL bush; this is nothing. (I could have been riding through a ****ed hedge at the gallop, or the best a horse could do trough a hedge, and it wouldn’t have been thick enough bush for those types of idiots); : Or 2) “well you will come unstuck one day, you’ll see”.
What they hated was that someone could get the job done as good as them with a horse more relaxed and calmer than theirs, which handled better, actually off its back legs, rather than turning by spinning its backside about, a horse that would jump on and off a truck with a hand signal, stand to be caught in the morning without two guys having to bail it up in the corner of the yard, stand and be shod without kicking, biting or trying to sit on you, the list goes on.
But now I notice that in “the bush” people like Clinton Anderson are becoming very popular, and one of the biggest selling saddles in Australia these days is a wade saddle, a slick fork saddle, after the half breed ones at least. I don’t know what it is but horse seem to bring out a lot of arrogance in people, and when they see something they don’t know or understand rather than learn from it they want to ridicule it; they are catching up now though, slowly.
     
    12-18-2012, 10:24 PM
  #28
Green Broke
Exactly, Tiny. The whole point of NH is to develop a better relationship with the horse, so that it can be a better partner for the human.
The send me game is just an arena trick until you have to send a horse over an obstacle on the trail because it's too dangerous to ride over.
If you want to change someone's mind about something lead by example.
     
    12-18-2012, 10:36 PM
  #29
Trained
There are crazies in every training method.

I showed my older, flat broke, been there done that gelding to a lady who was (forgive my terms) a NH crazy and she was appalled that I rode him in a bit and that I used spurs. It happened that during that day as well he stopped and refused to go forward briefly and she was appalled that I popped him on the butt with my quirt. She left informing me that my methods were outdated and barbaric....Wow, I don't remember even engaging my spurs. She also told me a story about how her horse bucked her off and didn't stand while mounting and tried to run her over. Hmm...I wonder why.

On that same note I saw someone at a show who had a horse who got just a little bit bronc-y and they kicked and spurred and just beat the **** out of that horse until it had bloody sides and bloody lips.

I don't have any respect for either of these extremes.

I don't do the coddling of the 1200lb animal, but I'm not going to abuse it either. The horse bites, kicks, rears, strikes, bucks towards me? Oh-ho, time to meet jesus. Clinton Anderson's program does the same thing, he's a NH trainer who isn't afraid to get after a horse with as stock whip if he tried to lunge at him (Saw it on an episode just the other day in fact) and neither am I.

Good horsemanship is good horsemanship. Respect from a horse is respect from a horse. A good trainer is a good trainer. There's no grey area there as far as I'm concerned. I don't feel the need to label myself as a NH trainer because I use CA, anymore than I feel the need to label myself an old-school cowgirl because I'll get after a disrespectful horse.
     
    12-18-2012, 10:45 PM
  #30
Yearling
And that is the problem with many NH people as far as I can see, and I consider myself to be a NH person. They haven’t paid attention to everything people like Parelli say and only take in the “nice stuff” they have no real depth of experience with horses and see them as a giant My Little Pony. They have never had to earn a living from the back of a horse and thus have the luxury of having a mediocre performing horse without their livelihood being in jeopardy. And despite whatever claims they might make they have probably never started a horse from scratch, let alone enough of them to know the strengths, much less the limitations, of any single method of horse training.
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