A Sudden Realization! (Bareback and Bridleless) - Page 4
   

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A Sudden Realization! (Bareback and Bridleless)

This is a discussion on A Sudden Realization! (Bareback and Bridleless) within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        06-18-2013, 04:50 PM
      #31
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KylieHuitema    
    He does the same thing with all bits. I use a bit with shanks yesterday, and he was just as terrible. Today I worked him in a snaffle, emphasizing on the whoa. Basically we did walk, stop, back. Again and again. He was good until I let him do a little trot and then stop. He got it in his mind to go go go. So anytime he would break from the walk to the trot, we would stop and back ALOT. Eventually when I would stop backing he would automatically try to walk on, and that was a big no no. So more backing and backing with lateral flexion added in.

    At a certain point in time he would not get the point so I pushed him forward and pushed him around in little circles at a fast trot into a canter. After he got to stop, back, sidepass and do lateral work. After all that was done, I ended it there so it wouldn't continue to go downhill. I ended on a good note atleast.
    How exactly do you woah your horse? If you are just hauling on his mouth, that may be why he doesn't work well in "any" bits.
    EvilHorseOfDoom likes this.
         
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        06-18-2013, 05:50 PM
      #32
    Trained
    Have you tried an elevator bit? If you do try a western curb bit, it helps to train them a little first. A few days ago, Mia stopped dead after a couple of bumps with the reins after sticking her leg into a cactus. I suspect a big part of that was the training of the last 3 months of working on stops constantly, but having 2 feet of leg covered in spines makes for a pretty big 'go' signal to a horse who was once a spook monster.

    I'm certain you and your horse are better trained than Mia & I, so I'm just trying to puzzle this out in my own mind. It gives me food for thought as I work with Mia on our issues...
         
        06-18-2013, 09:05 PM
      #33
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    I will just address the lead changes. A few years ago, with the same lead problems, I had him doing flying lead changes under saddle, using the same method. Now, he just speeds up and speeds up and speeds up when I keep asking, so I won't keep going in a bad direction trying to do that.

    Now, all I do is go in a figure eight, and neck rein him in the other direction where he switches it. Previously, I used to flex his head in the direction I wanted to go to change his lead, and press my foot in that direction.
    This tells me all I need to know. When someone is doing flying lead changes using a direction change and 'figure 8s', I know the rider does not ride at a very high level and lacks the skill to teach 'collection'. They also usually try to change leads by 'gunning' a horse into them which causes the horse to dread lead changes and/or speed up when they know one is coming. When horses start speeding up on lead changes, I know they have been 'gunned' into them and they have been pulled on in a futile effort to maintain a slower speed. They are also usually gunned forward when they change in front only -- something that most of the horses 'trained' in this way usually do.

    The idea that a curb is better or worse for a horse or that snaffle should always be the bit of choice is absurd. It is the person holding the reins and not the bit that causes ALL of the problems. Some horse prefer one bit to another and school better and easier in one kind of bit or another, but it is ultimately the hands on the reins that cause the problems. A good trainer can ride a well trained horse in a spade or halfbreed bit while a lousy rider will not find ANY bit, with or without shanks, that the horse trusts their hands while wearing it.

    I live in the heart of 'cowboy' country and have yet to see one start a colt in a curb bit. All of the 'cowboy' trainers that I know start them in snaffles or sidepulls. All of them also progress from a snaffle to a curb by going into curbs with swivel or 'loose' shanks that still allow two handed riding. Quite a few go into bits with hinged ported bits with bushings that also allow two handed riding. Personally, I really like them as do most of the horses I have put them on.

    You just cannot compare bits if you do not take into consideration the skill of the hands using them. A crude, rough handed rider is not going to find a bit a horse will work well in while a very skilled rider can probably ride the same horse in about any bit with some being more effective than others for training and teaching.
         
        06-18-2013, 09:23 PM
      #34
    Trained
    Cherie, you took the words out of my mouth and made them better. Beautifully said.
         
        06-18-2013, 09:24 PM
      #35
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cherie    
    This tells me all I need to know. When someone is doing flying lead changes using a direction change and 'figure 8s', I know the rider does not ride at a very high level and lacks the skill to teach 'collection'. They also usually try to change leads by 'gunning' a horse into them which causes the horse to dread lead changes and/or speed up when they know one is coming. When horses start speeding up on lead changes, I know they have been 'gunned' into them and they have been pulled on in a futile effort to maintain a slower speed. They are also usually gunned forward when they change in front only -- something that most of the horses 'trained' in this way usually do.

    The idea that a curb is better or worse for a horse or that snaffle should always be the bit of choice is absurd. It is the person holding the reins and not the bit that causes ALL of the problems. Some horse prefer one bit to another and school better and easier in one kind of bit or another, but it is ultimately the hands on the reins that cause the problems. A good trainer can ride a well trained horse in a spade or halfbreed bit while a lousy rider will not find ANY bit, with or without shanks, that the horse trusts their hands while wearing it.

    I live in the heart of 'cowboy' country and have yet to see one start a colt in a curb bit. All of the 'cowboy' trainers that I know start them in snaffles or sidepulls. All of them also progress from a snaffle to a curb by going into curbs with swivel or 'loose' shanks that still allow two handed riding. Quite a few go into bits with hinged ported bits with bushings that also allow two handed riding. Personally, I really like them as do most of the horses I have put them on.

    You just cannot compare bits if you do not take into consideration the skill of the hands using them. A crude, rough handed rider is not going to find a bit a horse will work well in while a very skilled rider can probably ride the same horse in about any bit with some being more effective than others for training and teaching.
    Cherie can you post a picture of a hinged port bit with bushings? I borrowed a bit (actually she gave it to me) of a friend and its got a low square port and it flexes on each side of the port and it pretty much moves in all directions on the shank joint....I don't have a name for it, I just call it wormy!! Anyway my horse LOVES this bit, I can two hand ride him in it because it has so much movement and he's very very relaxed and soft in it. When I bought him I was told to use a regular round port correction bit and a cathedral bit for showing. He works 'ok' in the correction and I haven't put the cathedral on him in a few months, he is very light in the cathedral. He works so nice in the 'wormy' bit that its become my go to bit - lateral work is important to me so this bit works well.

    Sorry went off topic......
         
        06-18-2013, 09:26 PM
      #36
    Started
    I was about to post, but Cherie said everything so well that I'm not sure I'd make any sense in comparison OP, it sounds like the tack isn't the issue so much as your riding. It sounds like you could really benefit from some good lessons, going back to the basics and getting that horse you used to ride back.
         
        06-18-2013, 11:18 PM
      #37
    Yearling
    Congrats, BSMS! That's a great step forward.
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        06-18-2013, 11:59 PM
      #38
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by KylieHuitema    
    He does the same thing with all bits. I use a bit with shanks yesterday, and he was just as terrible. Today I worked him in a snaffle, emphasizing on the whoa. Basically we did walk, stop, back. Again and again. He was good until I let him do a little trot and then stop. He got it in his mind to go go go. So anytime he would break from the walk to the trot, we would stop and back ALOT. Eventually when I would stop backing he would automatically try to walk on, and that was a big no no. So more backing and backing with lateral flexion added in.

    At a certain point in time he would not get the point so I pushed him forward and pushed him around in little circles at a fast trot into a canter. After he got to stop, back, sidepass and do lateral work. After all that was done, I ended it there so it wouldn't continue to go downhill. I ended on a good note atleast.
    Then this SHOULD raise the question of “what it is you are doing with the bit?”, not “what is the problem with bits?”
         
        06-19-2013, 12:03 AM
      #39
    Trained
    This is what I've been using with Mia, which sounds like what Cherie was writing about:





    Each side moves thru 45 deg of motion independent of the other side, and each side can also swivel out away from the face. If you look at in the horse's mouth, the initial pull on a right rein will put pressure on the right bar of the horse's mouth independent of the left side. Pull on both at once, and it acts like a traditional western curb. It looks to me like it has about 1.5 times in leverage, which is fairly mild for a curb bit.

    If Cherie is talking about something else, I apologize and will be curious to see what she meant.

    With Mia, I keep the curb strap on the loose side, but I don't know if that is a good idea. It seems to work OK as a direct rein, although I'm trying to get Mia used to one-handed riding, neck reining and listening to leg. If I bump on the reins, it gets her attention - but I'm trying to avoid doing that except for emergencies. If the only time I bump the reins is for a leg in the cactus, then it will be a very gentle approach to riding!

    For the OP: Do you have any pictures or video? It might help give folks ideas.
         
        06-19-2013, 12:14 AM
      #40
    Banned
    This is what I'm using, a different look but same action as mine, can you see all the joints on the port....it makes it very wormy. It collapses in your hand. Very very nice bit for my horse. He works very well in it.

    image.jpg
         

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