Thoughts on CA's patience pole? - Page 3
 
 

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Thoughts on CA's patience pole?

This is a discussion on Thoughts on CA's patience pole? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Clinton anderson teaching patience
  • Clinton anderson patience pole

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    09-01-2011, 04:45 PM
  #21
Super Moderator
Quote:
However as part of a post training regime it makes little sense and can cause more problems that it solves.
If you have a safe place to tie one up (our pipe arena is very safe), I cannot imagine what problem it would cause. It cures a bunch of them and I have never seen it cause a single one.

Quote:
There is absolutely no evidence so suggest that tying horses has any impact of their ability to retain or reflect on anything they have been through, and personally I think that idea is absolute tosh. In actual fact I think it is more likely to hamper their retention due to several other factors.
I certainly never said a horse had time to think about previous training. I only want then to NOT WANT to hurry off to the barn or pasture after being ridden. This does that quite well.

Quote:
Aside from that, after any significant training session the horse should be warming down, then cooling down. Tying reduces this possibility and increases the risk of injury.
Tying a horse up DOES NOT increase the possibility of injury. Of course, horses should be walked out and cooled down before they are stopped and unsaddled. NOBODY said a puffing hot horse should be tied up and left for hours!

Quote:
If a horse is arena sour or acting up on finishing the session then you are doing something wrong. Deal with that rather than trying to mask the issue with tying.
I agree --- and one of those 'wrong things' is riding a horse out of the arena and going straight to the barn with him right after a show class or training session.

Quote:
I have seen several horses react to post training tying by developing quite severe food aggression as another example.
In all my years of doing this, I have never seen it change a horse's pasture or barn personality other than to quiet one and help one settle down and make one less fussy and anxious.

Quote:
It's just another case of too much micromanagement as the only way to drill a horse into submission. Personally I really don't understand why CA even works with horses. He largely acts like someone who dislikes them at best.......
I am afraid that my observations do not match yours. I do not look at it like 'drilling a horse into submission'. I tend to see it as teaching horse that being quiet and agreeable makes for a happier horse and a more pleasant relationship. The happiest horses I see are the horses that decided that their human leader is worthy and they have nothing to worry about. The spoiled ones remind me of the spoiled children you see throwing tantrums in a store. Have you ever seen a 'happy' spoiled child? I haven't. They are all like spoiled horses -- completely miserable. The well-mannered, relaxed and non-anxious horse is certainly a happier horse.

As far as CA is concerned, I have been around Clinton Anderson many times. His horses are happy, healthy, well turned out and being obedient has not hurt them one tiny bit.

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    09-01-2011, 05:00 PM
  #22
Trained
Caution is never out of date. DH and I got our horses with the agreement that I would take care of them, he would contribute $ if money was low, AND that we would become CW Reenactors. That was 1985, we started our hobby 1 year later. We bought our herd, I opened a tiny riding academy, studied up and read like the dickens for the 10 years that I taught, and one book we bought/studied right off the bat WAS the Cavalry Manuel. (BTW, I had an online edition bookmarked but Google is getting really weird about searching, and I can't find it for you, sorry.)
There is a lot of good advice in that small book, and the wisdom was based on Europe's Cavalry manuals, and personal experiences from Cavalry Veterans of the Mexican War, prior to 1860. Even their saddle, the "McClellan," was named after General McClellan, who visited Europe and adapted a suitable saddle based on the Prussian version of such.
Our Cavalry were instructed to take the best care possible of their horses, whose needs came before the needs of the rider. Even knowing this there were campaigns where the men sometimes ate the horses or the mules, rather than starve. There are MANY stories of officers--they got the pick of the horses available--would weep when they lost a favorite horse, either through above, or because the horse was shot out from under them, and this was common since a horse is a bigger target.
I've only had 2 cases of colic in 26 years. Once Corporal and Toma got out and raided a grain can. The other time someone rode one of my horses and handed him back panting and sweating--didn't have the courtesty to walk him cool--and I spent 2 hours in the dark walking him. I don't want to have to do that again.
BTW, "Jealous Fatties" is a term my daugthers use. Lol
     
    09-01-2011, 10:46 PM
  #23
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe    
Corporal I'd love to know what a 'jealous fatty' is lol never heard that expression before!

In terms of the cavalry handbook that's maybe just a little out of date...... certainly you don't want hard feed straight after training, but normal grazing and natural movement after training is less likely to cause colic than standing tied and no grazing. (also likely to increase the risk of stomach ulcers too, which are becoming increasingly common, often undiagnosed and which not only threaten health but cause many behavioural and training problems too)
Not to mention that withholding water--as the Calvalry manual seems to suggest--can lead to issues like colic as well. It's perfectly safe to let a horse drink as much as he wants post-workout.
     
    09-01-2011, 11:39 PM
  #24
Showing
I also use this method, though I and my family have been using it for many years before CA stamped his little name on it. To me, it's not so much about letting them mull things over (whether horses do that or not is a secret they keep rather well), it's about teaching them to stand tied quietly until I deem they are to be untied and turned loose. After a good workout and cooling down, my horses are taken to the barn, untacked, rinsed off, given a drink of water, and then tied for anywhere from 5 minutes to a couple of hours, depending on how quickly they cock a leg and stand relaxed or go to sleep.

I've been doing this all of my life and my Dad was doing it for decades before I was born. I've never seen it create a problem that wasn't already there, but I have seen it correct a whole host of problems; pawing, pacing, calling for buddies, general sourness, pulling back, etc, etc.

I thoroughly believe that is exactly why I can take any of my horses anywhere and they will calmly stand tied for any amount of time, regardless of what's going on around them.
     
    09-01-2011, 11:47 PM
  #25
Banned
You know, I've never done this, and mine will all stand quietly tied for hours, too...
     
    09-01-2011, 11:56 PM
  #26
Weanling
Look at a roping horse they stand tied a pretty good bit of time and they are some of the best broke horses.
     
    09-02-2011, 12:51 AM
  #27
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
If you have a safe place to tie one up (our pipe arena is very safe), I cannot imagine what problem it would cause. It cures a bunch of them and I have never seen it cause a single one.

I certainly never said a horse had time to think about previous training. I only want then to NOT WANT to hurry off to the barn or pasture after being ridden. This does that quite well.

Tying a horse up DOES NOT increase the possibility of injury. Of course, horses should be walked out and cooled down before they are stopped and unsaddled. NOBODY said a puffing hot horse should be tied up and left for hours!

I agree --- and one of those 'wrong things' is riding a horse out of the arena and going straight to the barn with him right after a show class or training session.

In all my years of doing this, I have never seen it change a horse's pasture or barn personality other than to quiet one and help one settle down and make one less fussy and anxious.

I am afraid that my observations do not match yours. I do not look at it like 'drilling a horse into submission'. I tend to see it as teaching horse that being quiet and agreeable makes for a happier horse and a more pleasant relationship. The happiest horses I see are the horses that decided that their human leader is worthy and they have nothing to worry about. The spoiled ones remind me of the spoiled children you see throwing tantrums in a store. Have you ever seen a 'happy' spoiled child? I haven't. They are all like spoiled horses -- completely miserable. The well-mannered, relaxed and non-anxious horse is certainly a happier horse.

As far as CA is concerned, I have been around Clinton Anderson many times. His horses are happy, healthy, well turned out and being obedient has not hurt them one tiny bit.

Next?
Thank you for responding to that post. I wanted to, but you put it nicely.
     
    09-03-2011, 11:57 PM
  #28
Trained
Tying, whether done before, during or after a good workout is a good way of 1) teaching patience 2) letting lessons soak in 3) helping curb stall bound/pasture bound behaviors

You can also simply pen the horse in a small paddock too, just so long as he isn't simply going back to the herd immediately after a workout.

Horses get really really habitual really fast; so when all you do is take him out of pasture, tack up, ride, untack, turn back out...snotty herd/pasture bound behaviors start to crop up, often starting out as simple pawing here and there as you tack or untack, and eventually you have a horse who is a big pain to do anything with, because you have helped him 'guage' how long you should handle him, or have him away from the pasture.

Change up his routine, and don't be afraid to tie your horse up for a good while, before, or after a ride, or even both. I will often catch my mare up, tie her, go do something else, go back to her, tack her up, do some groundwork, retie for a while, and then come back do a riding work out, cool her out a bit, and then tie her back up while I clean the run, or whatever odd jobs I need to do. I will then untack, brush her down, and we will take a walk down one of the roads so she can graze...I love handgrazing my horses, and after a good workout, and soaking session, is a good time to do so.
     
    09-04-2011, 06:24 AM
  #29
Doe
Weanling
Quote:
I am afraid that my observations do not match yours. I do not look at it like 'drilling a horse into submission'. I tend to see it as teaching horse that being quiet and agreeable makes for a happier horse and a more pleasant relationship. The happiest horses I see are the horses that decided that their human leader is worthy and they have nothing to worry about. The spoiled ones remind me of the spoiled children you see throwing tantrums in a store. Have you ever seen a 'happy' spoiled child? I haven't. They are all like spoiled horses -- completely miserable. The well-mannered, relaxed and non-anxious horse is certainly a happier horse.

As far as CA is concerned, I have been around Clinton Anderson many times. His horses are happy, healthy, well turned out and being obedient has not hurt them one tiny bit.
Cherie

I agree that horses are happier (in general) with leadership. Where we differ is what we see as leadership and what we see as pure 'control' for the sake of it.
Relating to human psychology is not a good comparison, but as you have raised that example them let me expand it.

Sure in terms of children I too cannot stand the spoilt disprespectful ones, and much of our problems now relate to that side of society and a lack of boundaries and responsibility. However just as bad as no rules are the ones with too many. The micro-managed, overly disciplined and controlled, almost bullied child. I know a few of those too and they are the most likely to turn out to be serial killers or commit suicide. (notice how serial killers are always the ones that were quiet and unassuming?)

There is a balance. A middle ground. Clear distinct boundaries, but within those boundaries some freedom to be children. To develop and to grow.

Unfortunately in the horse world, largely the balance is missed. I see it here all the time. The two extremes. "Oh help me I don't want to discipline my horse I want it to love me - why does it kick?" VS "You need to GET onto it!! Show it who's boss! Move it around, whoop that ass!!".

No balance.

As for CA. I totally completely and utterly disagree. I do not see happy horses. I see 'broken' horses in the truest sense of the word. He is not a horseman he is a trainer. His job is to break a horses spirit and will as fast as humanly possible. That is what he does.

Just look at Mindy. No mind. No will. No spirit. I saw his retirement demonstration. It was shocking. I try to control my negative emotions, but I could have knocked him off that horse and throttled him. It wasn't a salute to Mindy it was an ego show off moment for him (again! Arent they all!). He had her backing this way and that, twisting here and there, spinning any which way and for however long he liked. All the time her mouth was gaping as he yanked on the curb. Her hocks were jarred, and you could see her flexing to avoid the spur.

That is not a man who cares about horses, who wants to be a better horseman. That is a man hungry for fame and its trappings. THAT is his priority not the horse. Compare him with someone like Mark Rashid.

That is why he only ever chooses horses that are no challenge. Simply a little spoilt, a little flighty, or no foundation. I have never as yet seem him work with anything bordering on aggressive, or truly dominant. Fact is he couldn't. His cookie cutter approach would get his ass handed back to him in much the same way PP dropped the bat when he came across a horse that even slightly didnt fit the process.

Quote:
The well-mannered, relaxed and non-anxious horse is certainly a happier horse.
Exactly. Relaxed and not anxious is something I rarely see when CA is around a horse.
     
    09-04-2011, 11:43 AM
  #30
Banned
Teaching patience doesn't have to involve a CA pole, but the concept is a top priority in horse training.
     

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barn sour, clinton anderson, natural horsemanship, patience pole

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