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Trying the Join up?

This is a discussion on Trying the Join up? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Joining up with 2 horses

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    10-15-2012, 12:54 PM
  #11
Super Moderator
I would not try to teach "join up" on a lunge line. Becuase, if they learn to come in to you when they stop, this will become an annoyance if and when you just want to lunge your horse in the future, and every time you stop to change direcions or whatnot, they try to come in to you.


When you described in your first post that you stopped and turned away from yourhorse, then looked back and he was just standing there, you were frustrated becasue he had not made the choice to come in to you.
Well, at that point, you do something that forces him to make another choice.
All you have to do is get him to break out of that "trance" of indecision. It can be hardly anything, like scuffling your foot, or tapping your boot with the whip/rope. Anything that make him choose to move his feet.
Once he moves his feet, you STOP. Wait and see, he might choose to come to you. You can encourage that choice by turning partway away from him and lowering yoiur head a bit. IF he runs away, then drive him a bit, then stop your feet/turn off your drive, and wait and see if he chooses to come in to you.
Whenever he stops and gets stuck (can't decide), you offer him aother opportunity to make a choice.

However, if he's looking at you, he might be "searching" for the right answer to this situation that he's in. Give him some time if it looks like he really is weighing his opitions and trying to fidn the right answer. Don't force him to decide too soon, if he is already searching mentally.

But, if he is "stuck", he searched and searched , or he is looking at you but pretty sure that he still wants to run away, then, you interrupt that "stuckness" with the scuffle of the boot, or the wigge of the whip, or whatever (the littlest amount necessary to break up his stuck thinking and make him move his feet. Do not go straight back to massive driving)

This is he "draw". You work on the draw as much as the drive. The draw is probably mre important.
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    10-15-2012, 01:11 PM
  #12
Showing
Horses on the lunge may be hesitant to come in as they may not like the lead lying on the ground and they have to pass it. This means the handler has to lean forward a bit and stroke the rope shorter. This removes the horse's choice. On the other hand after doing half a few turnbacks he'll learn he gets to rest when he does come in to you. When doing this at liberty, don't allow the horse to come in to you until you decide. If the horse decides it's an evasion of work and it's not his decision to make.
     
    10-15-2012, 01:39 PM
  #13
Super Moderator
Is your horse good to catch in an open pasture?
Does it come up to you when you call it?
Does it lead on a loose rope and follow your body movements rather than having to be dragged and directed?
Does it have good ground manners?

If Yes to all of these things then why do you want to do 'join up'?

Do you intend to ride this horse or play with it?

Theres nothing wrong with all this stuff if its serving a purpose towards what you want to achieve.

If your horse has learnt the basics of lunging then remove the lunge line and work it loose - but you do need a confined space to start this out in
I've done it with one of my horses just to prove a point - that it isn't difficult. She isnt super intelligent but she picked it up really easily
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    10-23-2012, 09:22 PM
  #14
Foal
I'd love to try this with the Mini I have my eyes on...

Can anyone tell me any more information about "Join Up" or was it just the video?
     
    10-26-2012, 12:41 AM
  #15
Trained
Well said Jaydee, although I don't think 'Join Up' is really helpful for the last 2 of your 'if so' points either. Oh wait, that's right, I disagree with 'Join Up' philosophy on many levels!
     
    10-26-2012, 01:36 AM
  #16
Started
I'm not a MR person (really not a fan, and not much of a fan of NH as it is marketed) but...you don't need a roundpen or a line. Just do liberty work in a smallish paddock or an arena. So long as it's not acres and acres and you've got his attention somewhat (or are fit and good with a lunge whip LOL) you should be fine. Get him moving away from you - if you can crack a whip that's great, but even making weird noises and running around doing an "aeroplane" works . Wait til he's showing some submission then approach (from an angle, not head-on), stroke his face once, turn your back and walk away. If he follows then you've achieved what you want; if he tries to walk ahead of you or doesn't follow get right after him again. Depending on how dominant or submissive it may be 5 or 25 minutes - generally not much more than that. Once he's following you politely start getting him to stop when you stop (reinforce with "whoa"). Then start walking again and make sure he follows.
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    10-26-2012, 01:56 AM
  #17
Trained
^^ I am actually a huge 'fan' of the *principles* of 'NH' but MR could only be termed 'natural' in a VERY loose way IMO. The aim of 'NH' as far as I'm concerned is to work *with* the horse & his natural behaviour & psychology, and 'Join Up' is arguably 'natural behaviour' but I don't agree that putting a horse in a small, inescapable enclosure & chasing it around like a predator is the kind of 'natural' that I want.
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    10-26-2012, 02:21 AM
  #18
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
^^ I am actually a huge 'fan' of the *principles* of 'NH' but MR could only be termed 'natural' in a VERY loose way IMO. The aim of 'NH' as far as I'm concerned is to work *with* the horse & his natural behaviour & psychology, and 'Join Up' is arguably 'natural behaviour' but I don't agree that putting a horse in a small, inescapable enclosure & chasing it around like a predator is the kind of 'natural' that I want.
SO agree, loosie. I always make sure when I'm moving a horse off that it isn't predator behaviour but "boss horse". I move confidently rather than sneakily, I move toward the hindquarters and everything is big, loud and obvious. The last thing you want is a horse associating you with predators - IMO there's no sense in getting a horse to associate you with predators when you're then expecting them to allow you on their back!
     
    10-26-2012, 02:37 AM
  #19
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilHorseOfDoom    
SO agree, loosie. I always make sure when I'm moving a horse off that it isn't predator behaviour but "boss horse". I move confidently rather than sneakily, I move toward the hindquarters and everything is big, loud and obvious. The last thing you want is a horse associating you with predators - IMO there's no sense in getting a horse to associate you with predators when you're then expecting them to allow you on their back!
I know we're on the same page Evil, but for the sake of clarification, it depends on the experiences of the horse, your intent, your emotional 'fitness'... as to whether a horse sees you as predatory or threatening, not just your bodylanguage. And regardless of bodylanguage & previous experiences, to chase a horse 'away' and keep chasing it in a small enclosure can still be too 'predatory'. If you're going to use this sort of technique, I agree with your using it in an open, unrestricted environment - at least you know when you've pushed too hard or otherwise been uneffective, because the horse won't hang around!
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    10-26-2012, 02:41 AM
  #20
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
I know we're on the same page Evil, but for the sake of clarification, it depends on the experiences of the horse, your intent, your emotional 'fitness'... as to whether a horse sees you as predatory or threatening, not just your bodylanguage. And regardless of bodylanguage & previous experiences, to chase a horse 'away' and keep chasing it in a small enclosure can still be too 'predatory'. If you're going to use this sort of technique, I agree with your using it in an open, unrestricted environment - at least you know when you've pushed too hard or otherwise been uneffective, because the horse won't hang around!
Oh absolutely! Not something I'd try in a small space at all myself - and personally it's not something I'd do with anything but a rude/dominant horse. I never did it with Star (my friend's mare) because she was incredibly submissive and nervous - tbh with horses like that it's almost asking for an accident! But with a very dominant horse who assumes they're boss, then it's a different story. Still don't like doing it in a small space though (for my own safety, partly!!).
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