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Types of Natural Horsemanship

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  • Monty roberts liar 2011

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    01-08-2011, 02:23 PM
  #11
Foal
Thanks everyone,
What I am really looking to do is create a strong relationship with my horse that I feel I don't have right now. She is 12 years old and already has good ground manners and everything else I just don't feel like she really trusts me and I have had her for 3 years. I am interested in monty Roberts join up methods. What does anyone think of this? I just feel stuck I'm one spot with her and I don't know where to go from here to further our relationship.
     
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    01-08-2011, 03:24 PM
  #12
Super Moderator
I am not a Monty Roberts fan. I think he is a spinner of wild tales if not an outright liar. I do know his story has changed many times according to his own tellings. One does not have a problem remembering the truth. He seems to have problems along those lines.

He, like anyone else that understands 'round-penning', knows how to put pressure on a horse at the right time and release that ressure at the right time. Do it right and ANY horse will 'face up' and follow the person in charge. The best Nationally known clinician that I have ever watched do this is Stacy Westfall. She is really good at it.

The whole thing about 'bonding' and 'having a relationship' is mostly BS to fit the novice 'horse huggers' desire to have their horse 'love' them like a dog does. Horses, as a herd animal, operate off of respect and the desire to be accepted by their herd. Giving treats, hand feeding, petting and loving on one does not count for nearly as much as making them show absolute respect.

Any good horseman can handle a horse, get complete control of its movement, teach it absolute respect, and most of those horses will follow that person anywhere.

There are exceptions that are just part ofsome horse's nature. Some are more 'aloof' than others and are less dependent on herd members. I had a mare that was very well trained and sold for a lot of money, going to an owner in the UK. She always made me walk out to her to catch her, while all of the others came to the gate when they saw me. I don't think she ever made a mistake in all of the time spent training and riding and using her, but she never got real friendly. I still have her 21 year old mother and she has been like that all of her life, also. I also still have her 7 year old daughter. She is just like that, too. They are just aloof horses that can take or leave human company as well as horse company. I really do not care as long as a horse behaves well and interacts properly with me.

If having a horse 'in your pocket' is desirable, then some horses just never satisfy those owners. I can always sell the ones that want to be 'pocket ponies' first -- not because they are better horses but because a lot of amateurs like pocket ponies.
     
    01-08-2011, 04:31 PM
  #13
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie    
I am not a Monty Roberts fan. I think he is a spinner of wild tales if not an outright liar. I do know his story has changed many times according to his own tellings. One does not have a problem remembering the truth. He seems to have problems along those lines.

He, like anyone else that understands 'round-penning', knows how to put pressure on a horse at the right time and release that ressure at the right time. Do it right and ANY horse will 'face up' and follow the person in charge. The best Nationally known clinician that I have ever watched do this is Stacy Westfall. She is really good at it.

The whole thing about 'bonding' and 'having a relationship' is mostly BS to fit the novice 'horse huggers' desire to have their horse 'love' them like a dog does. Horses, as a herd animal, operate off of respect and the desire to be accepted by their herd. Giving treats, hand feeding, petting and loving on one does not count for nearly as much as making them show absolute respect.

Any good horseman can handle a horse, get complete control of its movement, teach it absolute respect, and most of those horses will follow that person anywhere.

There are exceptions that are just part ofsome horse's nature. Some are more 'aloof' than others and are less dependent on herd members. I had a mare that was very well trained and sold for a lot of money, going to an owner in the UK. She always made me walk out to her to catch her, while all of the others came to the gate when they saw me. I don't think she ever made a mistake in all of the time spent training and riding and using her, but she never got real friendly. I still have her 21 year old mother and she has been like that all of her life, also. I also still have her 7 year old daughter. She is just like that, too. They are just aloof horses that can take or leave human company as well as horse company. I really do not care as long as a horse behaves well and interacts properly with me.

If having a horse 'in your pocket' is desirable, then some horses just never satisfy those owners. I can always sell the ones that want to be 'pocket ponies' first -- not because they are better horses but because a lot of amateurs like pocket ponies.
I totally agree with you on this.....what sort of training would you suggest to a beginner/novice horseperson? I need something to follow not just keep trying this and that and see what might work. I don't like that and I don't think it's good for my horse either.
     
    01-08-2011, 05:11 PM
  #14
Foal
I agree with you tobipaint! I think that is what I am looking for as well. Also I don't care if my horse is a "pocket pony" I just want her to be happy and enjoy her time with me, where now I feel that when she is not in the places she feels safe(i.e. Her paddock, the ring, the barn, places like that) Then she just doesn't trust that nothing will happen to her. Not that I think I can completely take away her spookiness but I want her to feel a little more comfortable around me.
     
    02-07-2011, 08:54 PM
  #15
Started
To luvmytobipaint & fivefurlongs, I'm going to disagree with just about all posters here & say that skipping over to MR's round-pen techniques likely isn't the answer, because Level 1 has what a beginner needs to get with the horse, & learn safety with the horse, IF one diligently studies the program (its purposes, the 4 responsibilities of the human, the 4 responsibilities of the horse, the 8 principles, etc., the principle of Love, Language, & Leadership balanced in equal doses, etc!) Also, please remember that all that your horse has to go on is your "feel"; how you present yourself, & you must first feel (accept, hear, be receptive to your horse's energy, for your horse to then feel back to you & then you can go someplace together.) Parelli absolutely teaches feel, yet people seem to lose sight of how important it is in the flurry of sticks & strings, & techniques. The result is that a horse learns the 7 Games, but they're just boring/torturous, because the good feel between horse & human got lost/never got built up (& part of that is the principle of being provocative enough to not bore your horse!)

Successful PP students study hard to leave nothing out & the most basic element to "leave in" is feel, is the relationship, which is meaningful to the horse.

Hope that helps!
     
    02-07-2011, 11:05 PM
  #16
Started
I forgot to give one caveat: The home study courses might not turn out the success stories that they could because of the fact that the student's learning alone: no doubt, it helps to have an experienced mentor on scene, or at the least, another beginner learning with you.
     
    02-09-2011, 03:34 PM
  #17
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Five Furlongs    
Thanks everyone,
What I am really looking to do is create a strong relationship with my horse that I feel I don't have right now. She is 12 years old and already has good ground manners and everything else I just don't feel like she really trusts me and I have had her for 3 years. I am interested in monty Roberts join up methods. What does anyone think of this? I just feel stuck I'm one spot with her and I don't know where to go from here to further our relationship.
Hi five furlongs I am going to go in a different direction than every one else. Your horse is 12, has good ground manners and is able to be ridden with no problems? Have I got that correct? In my opinion I think that messing around with games at this point is going to be counter productive and I believe will send your relationship with your horse backwards because it is going to get sick of you nagging at it. Personal experience has lead me to believe that the best way to develop a relationship based on trust is mileage. I suggest that you start doing some serious trail rides that challenge your comfort zones and the horses. The best way to develop a riding partnership is to ride, ride, ride. Start pushing your horse through things that it is not comfortable with, leave it with no choice but to trust your judgement and you will be amazed how that horse will begin to rely on you. You can not develop that kind of trust in a round pen or with games.
     
    02-10-2011, 12:46 AM
  #18
Foal
I like the Dennis Reis Approach which is similar to Pat Parelli with a few differences,
Mainly the need for getting our horse in tune with your body language in that you are "riding from the ground"...good example is teh circling game whihc PP teaches as Impulsion where a your horse circles you while you stand in a spot, while the horse goes around behind your back, what does that teach him? We do the circling game with the horse in our sight at all time so that he can read our body language wiht every step. CA to me brings in a lot of anthropomorphics into the lingo so people think that a horse is like a human it is not.
A horse doesnt think "I am getting something past the human by getting in the trailer" for instance, he lack subtlety and sells Tom Thumb bits in his catalogue, as well as a snap on a rope halter? That tells me a lot. And what they hell is wiht the tie ring, you teach your horse not to pull back by making it pull back? I could go on...but wont
I went to the source Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance and found the clinic that was closest to their style in my opinion. Yes a lot of wet saddle blankets are necessary but you can use the ground school to teach the horse a lot before you get up .
Of course any of these guys are great and have followers who do better than me...so glad we live in a day when this NH thinking is prevalent.
     
    02-17-2011, 05:23 PM
  #19
Weanling
I agree with many things here and funny most of it doesn't contradict. I think that horses bond with humans a lot if there is some common adventure - trail riding is a great way to do that. My husband thinks it's like a video game since you never know what's around the corner LOL

In all fairness PP does suggest that too - use your horse as transportation. It's meaningful to the horse. Northern you're right too feel is so important:

With focus you will get feel
With focus and feel you willl get timing
And
With focus,feel,timing you will get balance.

I think PP's program is structured very well but for someone starting you need to get a real human to help you too no matter what program you follow.
     
    02-19-2011, 01:32 PM
  #20
Yearling
Pretty much everyone who has posted before me has a great point.

I do use the Parelli program, and I pretty much would swear by it for my gelding. I do not watch any of the videos, however. You can do alot with a video. If a horse doesn't cooperate, you can crop it out. Pat and Linda wouldn't want themselves to look bad on DVD if something did happen. Nor would any other trainer of any species with any other style of training.

I have a trainer who teaches Parelli Natural Horsemanship, and it helps alot to have her there coaching me through. She has great horses that are a real example of what that program can do. It works great for my gelding. He is a more high-energy, very intellegent horse who likes to see what he can get away with. (In horsenality, he'd be a left-brained extrovert.) But I have a mare that is trained in something completely different. She knows nothing of any natural horsemanship, and Parelli works nothing for her. (She's a left-brained introvert.)

It all depends on the horse, and you can always adjust it for your horse, as long as you are adjusting it for the better, not for a way that is more aggressive or something.
     

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