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Understanding Natural Horsemanship

This is a discussion on Understanding Natural Horsemanship within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
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        09-22-2010, 10:54 AM
      #21
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by spirithorse8    
    "The horse gets no say in anything."

    Self indulging, egotistical, arrogant, pompous attitude.
    So... Tell us how you really feel....
         
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        09-22-2010, 11:34 AM
      #22
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by spirithorse8    
    "The horse gets no say in anything."

    Self indulging, egotistical, arrogant, pompous attitude.
    Tell us, please, how you draw the lines of when your horse is in charge and when you are in charge.
         
        09-22-2010, 11:38 AM
      #23
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BitlessForHappiness    
    I'm not my horses friend, but I am her partner. She brings the power and speed, I bring the guidance. Sounds like a difference of opinion in the definition of the word. For example: When I am jumping, I can line her up, but at some point I have to give her her head and let her do the work. I'd rather not argue, but I disagree wholeheartedly.
    I agree. When I go down the very steep hill I let my qh to pick the best path (and speed) to bring us down safely. We work as a team although I'm the one who picks where to go and how fast (generally).
         
        09-22-2010, 11:56 AM
      #24
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
    I agree. When I go down the very steep hill I let my qh to pick the best path (and speed) to bring us down safely. We work as a team although I'm the one who picks where to go and how fast (generally).

    The thing is you point them in that direction and say go. You do not give them the choice of are you going to or not. You may let them pick the speed and the exact path but you did not ask them if they would like to go down or not. You told them we are going down and we are going now. In the end you ended up where you wanted to be and the horse had no say as to that location. Might have had a say in how fast you got there.

    That is my point. I do not want the horse thinking that if they do not want to do something they can just not do it. If my stallion thinks that mare is his and he wants to go over to her I do not want him to do it with out permission. What he dose and where he goes is my idea. Once I give him permission to breed he has some say in how he teases the mare but not much past that.

    Same when I am riding. I do not want the horse thinking about leaving the arena or turning or running off. What we do and where we go in all my idea. This is why you see horses bolting. It starts with the rider getting on and the horse walking off or changing gaits with out the rider cuing the horse. Once they move with out being cued it is their idea. Once they get the idea that they can do these things it only get worse. A horse who bolts does not just one day say "hay I think I am going to run off with my rider". Especially a trained one. Yet they do. Why b/c their riders is letting them do small things that end up in big problems.
         
        09-22-2010, 09:10 PM
      #25
    Foal
    Our horses also realize we are in charge. Because we give them a choice, and when they make the wrong choice, there are consequences. They are rewarded (by taking off pressure) for making a right choice.
    Our horses are in our control. But I don't kid myself saying I can completely control my horses mind. In my opinion, I can teach them to make the decisions I want them to make, and we can work together, but I can't have say over every thing they do.
    Like I said, it's a matter of opinion. And I'd really rather not continue to argue it. I am glad you have never been hurt by a horse. Kudos to you. But I'll continue riding WITH my horses,and learning alongside them not just forcing them to do everything without knowing beforehand.
         
        09-22-2010, 10:05 PM
      #26
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BitlessForHappiness    
    Our horses also realize we are in charge. Because we give them a choice, and when they make the wrong choice, there are consequences. They are rewarded (by taking off pressure) for making a right choice.
    Our horses are in our control. But I don't kid myself saying I can completely control my horses mind.

    That is exactly what you are doing. You are training them to make what YOU feel in the right choice. That is controlling their mind.

    In my opinion, I can teach them to make the decisions I want them to make, and we can work together, but I can't have say over every thing they do.

    If you are controlling everything they do then you are not working together. You are giving them direction in which they follow. Which is what they need. What they crave and what they want. They want to have a leader and that is you.


    Like I said, it's a matter of opinion.

    I have a feeling out opinions are very close to the same. I just look at it a bit differently. I am in charge and I pick the where they go and what they do when I work them you are doing the same thing.

    And I'd really rather not continue to argue it.

    This is not an argument it is what is called a debate. It is what people do so in the end you can learn and hopefully other can also learn.


    I am glad you have never been hurt by a horse. Kudos to you. But I'll continue riding WITH my horses,and learning alongside them not just forcing them to do everything without knowing beforehand.
    I do not force a horse to do anything. They love their job. They love having a leader who actually leads. They love having set rules. This is what I give. From the sounds of it you do the same. You choose to call in a partnership and working along side them. I look at as I am the boss and the leader and they follow my lead. When they do not follow I make not following hard and following easy. By doing this I control their mind. When you have control of the horses mind you have control of their body.
         
        09-23-2010, 06:23 PM
      #27
    Trained
    Quote:
    Our horses also realize we are in charge. Because we give them a choice, and when they make the wrong choice, there are consequences. They are rewarded (by taking off pressure) for making a right choice.
    Sorry, but this is rubbish.

    A choice is only truly a choice when ANY answer can be correct and followed through. By not accepting the wrong answer, no matter wether you do it by making the right thing easier, or by only allowing one reaction, you are NOT giving your horse a choice.

    A choice would be - Do you want to be ridden today? And if the horse chose no, you turned around and left.

    'Giving your horse a choice' is baloney. You may think you're giving them a choice, but if you can handle your horse safely and ride it, then it didn't have any choice. No horse chooses to let a predator on their back, no horse chooses to be confined by a halter or a stall, no horse chooses to surrender it's freedom by picking up a foot.
         
        09-23-2010, 11:43 PM
      #28
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wild_spot    
    Sorry, but this is rubbish.

    A choice is only truly a choice when ANY answer can be correct and followed through. By not accepting the wrong answer, no matter wether you do it by making the right thing easier, or by only allowing one reaction, you are NOT giving your horse a choice.

    A choice would be - Do you want to be ridden today? And if the horse chose no, you turned around and left.

    'Giving your horse a choice' is baloney. You may think you're giving them a choice, but if you can handle your horse safely and ride it, then it didn't have any choice. No horse chooses to let a predator on their back, no horse chooses to be confined by a halter or a stall, no horse chooses to surrender it's freedom by picking up a foot.
    I still disagree. Our horses make either decision, but one is rewarded and one is discouraged. That's pretty much how things work in the human world too: one choice may work, the other may not. We're leading, yes. I think the term "baloney" comes from that you and I have different ideas of what a choice is in terms of horses rather than in terms of humans.
         
        09-23-2010, 11:46 PM
      #29
    Foal
    [QUOTE=nrhareiner;756919]
    That is my point. I do not want the horse thinking that if they do not want to do something they can just not do it. If my stallion thinks that mare is his and he wants to go over to her I do not want him to do it with out permission. What he dose and where he goes is my idea. Once I give him permission to breed he has some say in how he teases the mare but not much past that.
    QUOTE]

    I agree. We have consequences for if they refuse. But we also acknowledge that half of riding is the person leading, and the other half is the horse following. Leading also requires trust in your horse.
    Yes, I like debate better than argue. Better terminology, thank you.
    I think you're probably correct that our opinions are similar, just perhaps...thought processes?...are different.
         
        09-24-2010, 12:03 AM
      #30
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BitlessForHappiness    
    Our horses also realize we are in charge. Because we give them a choice, and when they make the wrong choice, there are consequences. They are rewarded (by taking off pressure) for making a right choice.
    But this is not true all the time. See the health thread, I posted a nasty pic of my horses anus where he has a huge gaping sore. My horse has never kicked out, but today I simply tried to lift his tail as I thought I saw something, and dodged a huge kick as he is clearly in pain.

    So tonight, I waited for my hubby to come home from work, as while he knows little about horses he does what I ask him to, and so I trust him more than the kids who are at my barn. My horse was in discomfort and not pleased while I cleaned and treated it, and was not rewarded by me taking off pressure - but I still did right by him, without taking off the pressure of letting me do it.
         

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