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Understanding Natural Horsemanship

6K views 54 replies 20 participants last post by  nrhareiner 
#1 ·
According to Wikipedia, Natural horsemanship is the philosophy of working with horses by appealing to their instincts and herd mentality. It involves communication techniques derived from wild horse observation in order to build a partnership that closely resembles the relationships that exist between horses.

What is it to you? Do you associate it with a specific name or a technique? Do you feel it is just a marketing scheme? Also, do you feel that Natural Horsemanship is something that can be used as a sole training method? Why or why not?

(Threads that explain why you do not agree with or even like a specific trainer are ok, an explanation as to why you dislike the trainer is prefered. Threads defending a trainer are also encouraged, however explanations are important).

To me,

Natural horsemanship is not a specific training method. To me it is a state of mind that is used by all horseman to some extent. I think that the use of the method depends on the horse and it's acceptance levels. I don't believe it is something that can be used as a sole source training method. I feel that there are times when traditional methods can not be beat and I also feel that on occassion, a certain level of aggressiveness from the handler is a must.
 
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#2 ·
I agree NH is a way of thinking and under standing not a training method as one would think of a training method or program. It is a way of putting a name to an way of understanding horses or dog or really anything we train.
 
#3 ·
Personally, I don't like term "Natural". There is nothing natural in working with the horse or caring for the horse. You just deal with the horse to your best, based on experience, common sense, and understanding of the horse's behavior/reaction. Those great trainers have lots of experience and I'm sure better understanding than me, that's what makes them trainers. But still even really good ones rely on common sense.
 
#5 ·
Personally, I don't like term "Natural". There is nothing natural in working with the horse or caring for the horse. You just deal with the horse to your best, based on experience, common sense, and understanding of the horse's behavior/reaction. <snip> But still even really good ones rely on common sense.
Yes! What Kitten_Val said.
 
#4 ·
I think of NH as being flexible. It should never be one way or the other. I've never found anything with horses to be black and white. Training shouldn't be black and white either.

Natural Horsemanship to me is working with what God gave us. It also means catering your program around certain personalities and quirks. I feel that some people think that NH is a more 'gentle' way of training. I disagree. I don't find it more or less harsh than more traditional training. We are all asking our horses to do something completly unnatural to them. We will all be met with resistance. Some horses respond to a strong, firm hand. Others need to be sweet talked into it. Others need to be tricked into thinking it was their idea in the first place.

I disagree with any 'training method' that gives false hope. A green riders first look to training should be to a local, in real life professional. Not a DVD. People get hurt when they have not only false hope, but false confidence. I wont name trainers off because I have issues with almost every DVD trainer out there. To me, they are getting further from the point than closer. Instead of catering a program around a horse, they are training a horse around a program. While some have given horses a mold to fit into, I chose to think that every horse is different. I've never ridden two exactly the same. I've certainly never trained two the same way.

I love the concept of NH as taught by the founders of the movement. Each horse is valued as an individual and trained according to his personality. I think the 'new age' NH has some valid things to offer. I just find it hard to wade through all the marketing to get to what is important to me. Horses.
 
#6 ·
I disagree with any 'training method' that gives false hope. A green riders first look to training should be to a local, in real life professional. Not a DVD. People get hurt when they have not only false hope, but false confidence. I wont name trainers off because I have issues with almost every DVD trainer out there. To me, they are getting further from the point than closer. Instead of catering a program around a horse, they are training a horse around a program. While some have given horses a mold to fit into, I chose to think that every horse is different. I've never ridden two exactly the same. I've certainly never trained two the same way.
I agree 100% with you about people need to find a good trainer vs. a DVD. Now I do have some DVDs however I do not use them to learn to train I use them to get info from trainers with in my Discipline who have proven that what they do works. It just gives you more things to work with and anouther thought process that you might not have access to other wise.
 
#7 ·
As educational material, I think they are pretty informative! Its the ads that kill me! Promising to solve all your horses problems if you just buy the DVD. To a fresh young rider, how could you turn it down! We are a DIY culture. We all want to be able to do the right thing for our horses. The way things are marketed...its as if they are saying "buy this DVD, watch it, and you will be a horse trainer". While experienced horsemen know better, a young or new rider wouldn't.
 
#8 ·
The way things are marketed...its as if they are saying "buy this DVD, watch it, and you will be a horse trainer". While experienced horsemen know better, a young or new rider wouldn't.
Do not forget to add in a little bit of, "these training methods are all you will ever need, they are a one size fits all solution to every little thing that might ever happen with your horse".
 
#11 ·
I like the idea of NH to one extent or another, I do not believe that it is a fix all, do all training tactic though, and in fact I don't believe that the clinicians believe that either, they just market it that way. I think it's a great part of a training program and a good foundation, but the best trainers can adapt to a horse's needs for training and integrate everything.
 
#13 ·
To me, natural horsemanship simply means communicating to the horse in it's own langueage. When I lunge in the round pen, using Monty Roberts and John Lyons 'Round Pen Reaoning' I am talking to the horse with my body, my actions, in his own langueage. And every horse on the planet knows this langueage.

I use this training, only when I need to restablish dominance and to build a bond. For tying, saddleing, I guess I use more mechanical methods, and picking up feet. I believe if a horse tries to bite, give him a little slap to let him know it's wrong!

I don't think Natural Horsemanship could ever be a training program in itself. I also don't belive that "Natural Horsemanship" is, oh, if the horse kicks me, I'll hike my leg up and kick him back like in the wild. No, that's stupid, dumb, and could cause serious injury to you way more than it ever could the horse.

But on the basic level, I think it is the best way to etablish dominance, and a bond of trust with your horse. And, let me tell you, there is nothing more magical then having that horse follow you around the pen without a single use of mechanical equipment, only body languege. To have the horse stop when you stop, without even touching him in anyway. To turn when you turn. It's just amazing.
 
#15 ·
I don't think Natural Horsemanship could ever be a training program in itself. I also don't belive that "Natural Horsemanship" is, oh, if the horse kicks me, I'll hike my leg up and kick him back like in the wild. No, that's stupid, dumb, and could cause serious injury to you way more than it ever could the horse.
I haven't had the pleasure of seeing too many training videos or anything on natural horseman ship, but I try to do what comes natural to me and what works the best from what I can tell. Well with my very agressive mare this worked wonderfully. On a lead rope if she ever tried to run me over, or anything like that, I would turn towards her and kick her right in the chest. Obviously not hard enough to hurt her, but enough to tell her I'm boss, you listen to me, but in the pasture, no I don't think I'd go kicking at her where I have no control of whether she is going to kick back, but there were times when I first got her that when I came into get her out of the pasture she would run away from me, and if I chased after her she would kick at the air. So I grabbed our grain buckets and everytime she kicked I threw a bucket at her and hit her in the side. Since that, she's never kicked at me again or for that matter ran away. She walks right up to me when I come in now usually licking her lips.
 
#14 ·
I agree Chevy, great post.

Natural Horsemanship has been around since the Ancient Greeks. Xenophom wrote a book discussing on how to utalize the natural behavior in horses and learning to work with them in this manner, instead of using human force.

I think that is where the term Natural horsemanship came from, due to Xenophom's book, discussing how Trainers can utalize the horses natural behavior when working with them on a one to one basis. Which I like.

I love the fact that many top level trainers use Natural Horsemanship on a daily basis and incorporate its importancies to their handlers and students. I see A Cirtcuit Hunter/Jumper barns using it, and I see GP Jumpers using it and Eventers from lower levels to Olympic Level using it. I see and hear Top Level Dressage Competators incorporating it in their Clinics and daily riding/handling's.

I really like what the Top Dressage German Guru said in a Clinic I was watching, Reiner Kimkle say to his packed audience "It is not our horses job to learn our language, it is our job to learn theirs and learn how to communicate with them as clearly as we can for them to understand what it is that we are asking of them"

I also love how the Native Americans followed their form of Natural Horsemanship. They spoke horse, learnt how to communicate through the horses language and were able to perform amazing feats. I like Gawani Pony Boy. I have his book and it is very interesting.

I love how Natural Horsemanship teaches us to learn to read body language, how to speak through ours and how to form a relationship between horse and man in their language, not ours.

I am not a horseperson who follows any 1 "Natural Horseman" Trainer of today. I take pieces from each one, and what they offer. Speaking Horse is Speaking Horse regardless of who you follow, they all lead to the same destination, just different paths are offered. I am not a die hard follower as well, and I don't get into the marketing that they throw at us.

I like the basics, just as Chevy said. I use the basics on a daily basis, and I've helped friend with their horses incorporating the basics in their handlings of their horses. I've seen it do wonders for both parties.
 
#16 ·
To me, NH is the way to go. It recognizes that there is no one solution, that accomplishments take WORK, that horsemanship comes from a basis of knowledge and application. That it functions off the ideal that horses and humans are partners. Neither is sovereign over the other. The human is merely a leader or "alpha".
 
#17 ·
That it functions off the ideal that horses and humans are partners.
A horse in NOT my partner. Saying someone or something is your partner you are saying they have an equal say in what happens where you go and what you do. That is not how it works. That in one of the big problems I see with people who follow NH. They want to be their horses friend and partner.

You can be nice and even handed but you are the boss and the leader. The horse gets no say in anything.
 
#20 ·
That is your thoughts and that is fine. However I have NEVER been injured by a horse. Not even the stallions I have collected and bred of mine or out side stallions. Not from a mare deciding she does not want to do something. I can walk a stallion through and a herd of mares with out so much as a wispier. I can put my stallion next to mares with one strand of Hot wire. Right now Te is next to a mare with just one hot wire which is not on and has not been for about a year. WHY? B/C all my horses under stand one thing. I am in charge. They have no say in anything while they are on the end of a lead. Fences are not suggestions they are hard and fast rules.


They are 1/2 ton animals. I am not going to put myself or any one who is on my property in danger b/c my animals can not be controlled. Since you can not physically control a 1000lbs horses body you MUST control his mind.

So in the end you can think what you want. However I am not going to change what I do and end up in the hospital or hurt b/c I loose control of a horse.
 
#25 ·
Our horses also realize we are in charge. Because we give them a choice, and when they make the wrong choice, there are consequences. They are rewarded (by taking off pressure) for making a right choice.
Our horses are in our control. But I don't kid myself saying I can completely control my horses mind. In my opinion, I can teach them to make the decisions I want them to make, and we can work together, but I can't have say over every thing they do.
Like I said, it's a matter of opinion. And I'd really rather not continue to argue it. I am glad you have never been hurt by a horse. Kudos to you. But I'll continue riding WITH my horses,and learning alongside them not just forcing them to do everything without knowing beforehand.
 
#26 ·
Our horses also realize we are in charge. Because we give them a choice, and when they make the wrong choice, there are consequences. They are rewarded (by taking off pressure) for making a right choice.
Our horses are in our control. But I don't kid myself saying I can completely control my horses mind.

That is exactly what you are doing. You are training them to make what YOU feel in the right choice. That is controlling their mind.

In my opinion, I can teach them to make the decisions I want them to make, and we can work together, but I can't have say over every thing they do.

If you are controlling everything they do then you are not working together. You are giving them direction in which they follow. Which is what they need. What they crave and what they want. They want to have a leader and that is you.


Like I said, it's a matter of opinion.

I have a feeling out opinions are very close to the same. I just look at it a bit differently. I am in charge and I pick the where they go and what they do when I work them you are doing the same thing.

And I'd really rather not continue to argue it.

This is not an argument it is what is called a debate. It is what people do so in the end you can learn and hopefully other can also learn.


I am glad you have never been hurt by a horse. Kudos to you. But I'll continue riding WITH my horses,and learning alongside them not just forcing them to do everything without knowing beforehand.
I do not force a horse to do anything. They love their job. They love having a leader who actually leads. They love having set rules. This is what I give. From the sounds of it you do the same. You choose to call in a partnership and working along side them. I look at as I am the boss and the leader and they follow my lead. When they do not follow I make not following hard and following easy. By doing this I control their mind. When you have control of the horses mind you have control of their body.
 
#27 ·
Our horses also realize we are in charge. Because we give them a choice, and when they make the wrong choice, there are consequences. They are rewarded (by taking off pressure) for making a right choice.
Sorry, but this is rubbish.

A choice is only truly a choice when ANY answer can be correct and followed through. By not accepting the wrong answer, no matter wether you do it by making the right thing easier, or by only allowing one reaction, you are NOT giving your horse a choice.

A choice would be - Do you want to be ridden today? And if the horse chose no, you turned around and left.

'Giving your horse a choice' is baloney. You may think you're giving them a choice, but if you can handle your horse safely and ride it, then it didn't have any choice. No horse chooses to let a predator on their back, no horse chooses to be confined by a halter or a stall, no horse chooses to surrender it's freedom by picking up a foot.
 
#28 ·
I still disagree. Our horses make either decision, but one is rewarded and one is discouraged. That's pretty much how things work in the human world too: one choice may work, the other may not. We're leading, yes. I think the term "baloney" comes from that you and I have different ideas of what a choice is in terms of horses rather than in terms of humans.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Choice ?

Hi, I just found the end of this very long thread. Here's my two cents:

Of course, the horse has no real choice in a lot of what we do. I mean he can chose the hard way, so in that sense he will . But horses, by their very nature as herd animals, mostly just want to get along with others. So, by giving them a choice of harmony vs disharmony (easy vs hard) they are going to follow the way of harmony, for the most part.
The thing is that learning happens best when they are allowed to
SEEK the correct answer. True, we wont let them get away with the incorrect answer, but if we don't necessarily make the path too narrow and forced.
In the round pen we might want the horse to move left. we put a feel in the rope suggesting left, the horse back up. we just keep putting a feel left, the horse goes forward, we suggest left the horse goes right, . . eventually, he will FIND the correct path. THEN pressure comes off.

He really had not choice because we didn't stop our asking until he made the correct choice, however if I really wanted to remove all freedome I would walk in there close and make it so clear to him by kind of pushing him left. Better to let him figure it out himself.
just like teaching kids, if you let them struggle a little and seek a way, including makeing some wrong turns, they will remember the best result better.

Another example:

When bridling you may want your horse to bend his head toward you. You can put your hand on the outside of his jaw and "bring" his head around to you , so for darn sure it's there, or you can apply a light pressure on the outside until the horse figures to move away from that pressure (you don't follow that pressure, you stay OFF his face by an inch or so) He may only move a tiny amount toward you, but it's pressure off. Then ask again. I don't make continuous contact. However, if he chooses to try to return his face to away from me, I would put a light tap on it to say, "not that way", and ask again for the move toward me and when he did, pressure off. I want him to think, " come all the way around", Not just be pushed over by my hand.. I do'nt push his face over, I ask it over.
 
#35 ·
Not just be pushed over by my hand.. I do'nt push his face over, I ask it over.
I'm glad you found us!

This sentence pretty much exemplifies what we do. We ask the horse to comply, and they generally do except for a few times when there's consequences. Yes, we are telling them what we want. But we're not showing them exactly where to go for them. Like in (almost) any style of riding, the horse has to think too.
 
#34 ·
I think what alot of folks are trying to get at, when speaking of "choices", to me, sounds more like they are using the old "ask, tell, demand" theory....
 
#38 ·
The relationships we have with the domesticated horse is complicated -- not "natural" maybe, but NOT UNNATURAL either. Glad you brought up that point, kitten_Val. I like to think of me and my two as a little herd. They don't do things because I want them to, or tell them to, or demand; I like to think that when I do things right, they don't even know it's me doing the deciding. Maybe I'm a kind of leader, maybe at times I'm kind of bossy, maybe I'm just one of the herd, but what we do is always the "right thing." That's my job, to make what I want, the "right way" to live. When their way isn't my way, it doesn't actually mean it's WRONG for THEM.
 
#39 ·
Hey, I don't really believe in the whole 'predator/prey' thing, but most 'NH' people do - it just demonstrated my point.

Horses can definitely learn to love their job! They learn that good things happen (Comfort) when they do what you direct, and when they become comfortable and relaxed doing what you want, they can then learn to enjoy it. In the case of a QH working cows, they also have a genetic leaning to being good at it and enjoying it.

All I am saying is that if horses truly had a choice, they wouldn't be ridden. I would bet that there isn't a horse in the world who you could have jumped on with no training and ridden off into the sunset. They need to be taught the right reactions, they need to be told/shown the correct answers, they need to be taught to accept us.

The moment we decide a horse is going to be a riding horse, there is no choice left for the horse.

I personally have no issue with it - I just have an issue when people say they let their horses make choices and that is why they are better/more natural/kinder/better partnership than anyone else. Because it simply isn't true. The ONLY difference between any GOOD trainers, no matter the discipline or method, is the amount of discomfort when the horse is trying the wrong answer.

I am much like NRHAReiner (Sp?) and Smrobs in my views - My horses don't get choices in where we go, what we do, or when we do it - but I try to make everything we do as easy and enjoyable and clear for them as possible. If they show an inclination to one activity, then I persue what they enjoy. I spend time grooming and talking to them. I feed them treats occasionally and I love them like nothing else in my life. I am perfectly secure in my way of handling and training my horses. My horses are well behaved, polite, and still have that personality that I love. I am no professional trainer or top level competitor - I get my kicks out of creating horses that everyone wants. Horses that are happy and comfortable in their jobs and secure within their place in our world. I get a kick out of figuring out how to teach things in a way that is easy to understand - Trying new things that other people think aren't possible. My horses and how I train are a very personal thing to me.
 
#40 · (Edited)
The thing I really really don't understand with some of the NH gurus is that they don't accept leadership as part of what a horse needs; Sorry, folks, but look at ANY herd of horses, whether it be 2 or 200...you WILL see leaders, sometimes several mares will be, BUT the point is, that our horses NEED a leader, and we as their owners, riders, trainers, etc, are responsible for being a good and fair leader for him. It's in good leadership that you will have the working relationship you desire, period.

My buck and bolt mare didn't turn into a decent trail horse, because I 'talked' her into it...I made the decisions, and chose the direction in her training to create a willing riding horse. Have I taken things slower in some areas? Definitely, BUT I am still her leader, and she chooses to listen and obey, simply because I have established myself as a trusted leader, by not babying her fears, or beating her through her buck and bolt issues...I've been consistent, gentle when I can, and firm when necessary.

I challenge any of you people who believe that your horse is truly your 'partner' by riding through scarey as hell places, without them wigging out; My mare can ride through a busy town, under bridges with traffic over and beside her, passes road work crews, and encountered a coyote one night; literally 5 ft away from her, and she didn't take control or become fearful...didn't even raise her head, she waited patiently for my direction. THAT to me is a working relationship between horse and rider...you can get all fancy in the arena, but does that transfer to everywhere in your horse riding life????
 
#41 ·
Honestly, I don't think there is much disagreement between anyone here, I believe it's just how people have said it. No one gives their horses choices, at least I really hope not. Obviously in some cases the horse gets a choice, such as if they are hurt, I hope to god we don't choose to ride them. But let's say out on the trail, if your horse wants to go left, and you want to go right, are you really going to let your horse choose which way to go? Hell, I let my horse choose and then tell her we're going the other way.

And from what I've seen with NH, the point is to make yourself their leader in a natural way. This may not be the case with all trainers, but from what I've experienced that's what they're trying to teach you to do.
 
#42 ·
And from what I've seen with NH, the point is to make yourself their leader in a natural way. This may not be the case with all trainers, but from what I've experienced that's what they're trying to teach you to do.
Thing is have you ever really watched what a lead mare does to assert their dominance. My Dun It mare is the leader of the herd. She is mean and ruthless in how she goes about it. Yet she fully under stands that I AM boss. She will even go stand in a corner when I fell she is being too much of a bully with the other mares.
 
#45 ·
here is one example of the horse having a limited choice (and it really isn't a choice, I know) Leading;
Some people hold the line right up under the horse's jaw and they are kind of "holding" the horse at the distance from them that they want, via a direct physical push/pull on a line to a halter. The horse is being "steered". Others have the horse on a line with about 4 or 5 feet of loose rope that is still connected to the horse, but the horse is lead by the mear "feel" of the rope and the presence of the leader. The horse has the freedom to come too close if it wants, no tight rope to stop it. But the energy of the leader is what drawes the horse, or keeps him at a respectful distance. That has to be taught the horse, but it doesn't take much because it more closely mimics the way a lead horse draws or pushes the others via its' presence/energy. That is a kind of choice, in a way.
 
#46 ·
I think Natural horsemanship is using politically correct teminology. In traditional horsemanship we have obediant horses, In natural we have willing partners. In traditional we sack a horse out, in natural we desensitize.In traditional we tell a horse what we want, In natural we ask. Funny thing is some variation of the same technique is used to accomplish the same goal in most cases.
 
#49 ·
I think natural horsemanship is the same ask, tell, demand that horses use in daily life. You don't really give the horse a choice in the matter, the same as a lead mare doesn't give a less dominant horse a choice in the matter. Watch a herd of horses as feeding time. If a less dominant horse challenges the lead horse for the food source, the lead horse will ask them to leave by pinning his/her ears and glaring at the other horse. If that doesn't work, he/she will tell him to leave by biting at the other horse. And if that doesn't work, he/she will demand that they leave by physically chasing the other horse off by what ever means necessary. We do the same thing, like with leading a horse. We ask them to move forward, if they don't move, we tell them to move forward, if that doesn't work we demand that they go forward. It's a conditioned response that with practice they eventually get to where when we ask they go forward. It's the same way horses teach each other what is acceptable in the herd. That's why there is always a dispute when you add a new horse to a herd, they have to figure out where this horse fits in the herd, your job is just to make sure that you are the dominant horse in the herd regardless of how many other horses are in the herd.

I guess in a way, it is a matter of choice for you and the horse. As in neither one of you have a choice in the matter of where you fit in the herd!
 
#50 ·
I am not a believer in the concept of 'choices' for horses. Before I even set foot in my horses paddock I have decided what I am going to do with her, where we are going, for how long and how fast. I make these decisions and my horse gets to do what I want.
 
#52 ·
Is that directed at me? If it is I hope so too!

But I am not sure what I said that was so wrong. Doesn't every one plan rides? You know, "I plan to ride to such and such, probably be at such and such place by lunch time, stop and rest there etc, etc" I mean seriously, are you telling me you have a problem with me riding my horse in this manner? This is why I have a horse, to enjoy trail riding, are you saying that what I should be doing is getting on my horses back and letting her meander wherever she wants too?
 
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