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What does Natural Horsemanship mean to you

19K views 164 replies 53 participants last post by  Kaifyre 
#1 ·
To a lot of people the idea of Natural Horsemanship means different things. Like to some it means a partnership with there horsev(that's me) and to some it might mean a way to talk to the horse directly through body language (that's me as well). I would love to hear what Natural Horsemanship means to you. In this thread nothing is wrong.:faceshot:
 
#2 ·
To a lot of people the idea of Natural Horsemanship means different things. Like to some it means a partnership with there horsev(that's me) and to some it might mean a way to talk to the horse directly through body language (that's me as well). I would love to hear what Natural Horsemanship means to you. In this thread nothing is wrong.:faceshot:



Okay then! I consider natural horsemanship to be riding without a bra on.
 
#4 ·
I have never been able to figure it out, myself. Pretty much all the experienced horsemen and horsewomen I know think it's a silly scam, including the people who invested some time learning it, in the past. I've never seen it in person. It's a term which has been hung on a few trainers who seem to disavow it (the Brannaman/Dorrance group).

I have to say everything I've heard about it has turned me off . . .
 
#7 ·
Well, I wouldn't agree, speaking as an average person 'back then', that I thought of horses as machines at all, nor did anyone else I knew. But our understanding of horses was pretty crude. We used force when knowledge and patience would have been far more effective, but we didn't have that knowledge. We did the best we could.

It was also a time when children and dogs were treated very similarly to horses. It was generally agreed that fear was the best and surest motivator. When you are raised that way yourself it's natural to apply it to those under your power as it was applied to you.
 
#8 ·
my words were not good. I think what I meant is that prior to some of the natural horsemanship gurus getting out there, people did not take the time to be interested or curious about what the hrose's emotional stance might be. sure, the very best trainers ALWAYS had this in mind. but I mean the average person was just, "I pull here, push there and it goes".

of course, the concept that the horse is a thinking being can also be taken too far, in that folks start to think it thinks like we do, and then get very mixed up; treating a hrose like a child.

but, you asked me what it meant to me, and I think it means both of those things. but, whether folks find it laughable or not, it HAS created a bit of a renaissance in horse ownership and care, and while it may have helped create some spoiled horses and clueless owners, at least it has gotten people interested in learning more about these thinking, feeling animals.
 
#10 ·
At its best, riding always involved the mind of the horse. Nearly 100 years ago, a French rider wrote:
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"Therefore, everywhere - out-of-doors or in the haute ecole - success with horses is to him who applies this maxim of Baucher...

'Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.' There dwells an eternal equestrian truth!

'The horse is the sole master of his forces; even with all of our vigor, by himself, the rider is powerless to increase the horse's forces. Therefor, it is for the horse to employ his forces in his own way, for himself to determine the manner of that employment so as to best fulfill the demands of his riders. If the rider tries to do it all, the horse may permit him to do so, but the horse merely drifts, and limits his efforts to those which the rider demands. On the contrary, if the horse knows that he must rely on himself, he uses himself completely, with all of his energy.'" - 5 May 1922

-- Horse Training Outdoors and High School, Etienne Beudant (1931)
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About 150 years ago, a cavalry officer wrote:
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"The French say, when speaking of a horse that shows restiveness, "il se defend" - he defends himself...There is much truth in this expression, and it is one that riders should constantly bear in mind, for insubordination is most commonly the result of something having been demanded from the horse that it either did not know how to do or was unable to perform...

...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement ; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp,which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...

..Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored ; they like amusement, variety, and society : give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place, especially with young animals. It is evident that all these things must be taken into account and receive due attention, whether it be our object to prevent or to get rid of some bad habit a horse may have acquired ; and a little reflection will generally suffice to point out the means of remedying something that, if left to itself, would grow into a confirmed habit, or if attacked with the energy of folly and violence, would suddenly culminate in the grand catastrophe of restiveness...

...Here, too, we find a practical hint for the treatment of full-grown horses that shy at particular objects and sounds, or object to passing certain spots. Treat them as the English trainer does his young ones, lead them about as described above, and reward them for their docility with a bit of bread, sugar, or something of the sort ; you will thus avoid all conflicts, the danger and evil consequences of which are enhanced a thousandfold if you attempt to mount your horse under such circumstances. Of course, when shyness arises from defective vision, which is often the case, this method will be of no avail.

-- On Seats and Saddles, by Francis Dwyer, Major of Hussars in the Imperial Austrian Service (1868)
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The above quotes are closer to what I call "Natural Horsemanship" than what I see in Pat Parelli or Clinton Anderson, although those two might agree with the above quotes. Much of what I see in Parelli and Anderson, however well intended, is rooted in harsh dominance. Much round pen work is done in a spirit of breaking the horse's will, rather than shaping it. Baucher and Beudant, too, were both were entirely willing to "break" the will, rather than shape it.

In honesty, for all of MY good talk, I often resort to cussing and "Just DO it!" (Is that the Nike School of Riding?) It is easy to TALK about understanding a horse, and working WITH him, but much harder to actually do so! It is like raising kids. The theory is so much easier than the practice!

But while I dislike the marketing of the popular "Natural Horsemanship" trainers, I'm glad they have popularized the idea of working with the animal and trying to understand it. Unfortunately, their target audience for marketing is the person who hasn't been around horses long, who is overhorsed and/or afraid, and their offered solution doesn't address the root of the problem for those riders - the need to become more confident by FIRST becoming better riders, AND the need to start with a horse who doesn't overwhelm them. And yes, I write that from personal experience! I've lived it. I know exactly where the target audience is coming from, and I think many of the solutions pushed on DVDs and in clinics fail to address the cause of the problem.

Wanting to understand horses is great. Expecting to with your first horse...very do-able IF your first horse is the right sort of horse. And then, with time and plenty of "wet saddle blankets" under YOUR butt, you can safely expand your horizons. Lacking the right horse, what many of the followers of NH need is good instruction - but then, good instruction is hard to find, too!

I read Parelli's first book cover to cover, and found almost nothing that I would consider "natural horsemanship".

I'll finish this rant with one of my favorite pictures, taken near the front lines during World War One. In its own way, it says a lot about natural horsemanship:


 
#13 ·
All well and good; the trouble is, that is not what the phrase has come to mean. It's come to be identified with a bunch of specific techniques created by some specific people and marketed heavily to a certain segment of the horse-owning population, along with associated gadgets.

My own experience is limited to listening to and reading about people who have become very stuck in their training because they are religiously trying to follow the instructions and come up against very common challenges with no way to solve them, due to the limited options, and narrow understanding available in this method. Seems that the large majority of OPs in this subforum can be classified that way.

In the dog training world there are many parallel developments, so I'm familiar with how our particular culture right now seems to be creating a fertile ground for people who are extremely averse to firmly controlling another being, yet long for a connection with the animal world, to get taken for a ride -- literally and figuratively.
 
#12 ·
To me natural horseman ship is a joke. there are bits and pieces of it that make sense, but for the most part they have taken the human need for "bonding" and having a "relationship' and figured out how to make a buck from folks who need to feel good about their "connection' to the horse.

The things that folks are calling natural horsemanship and putting their name on, are the same things that have been done with horses since they became a tool rather than a food source. But, if you give it a name, sell a fancy halter or other "magical equipment" with it, now its an income.....

Jim
 
#15 ·
my trainer would never call herself a natural horsemanship trainer, yet that is probably the closest description of her approach. she is not training for a particular discipline. she is training the human to be clear to the hrose, and the horse to be relaxed and available to the human.

she uses almost NO tools, just a rope leadline/halter, and sometimes a stick (ANY sticklike thing will do) and a flag.

no surcingle, no boots, or tie downs, or martingales, or sliding boots, or gag bits, or hoof stacks or elevator bits, or stud chains or ?

talk about having / using fancy tools!
 
#16 ·
Tiny, same thing with my trainer. If you tried to pin him down as to what well known trainer his methods are most like he'll tell you "I'll tell you next lesson" Dang Vaquero types always talking in riddles they leave for you to figure out for yourself!

And ditto on the fancy tools!
 
#17 ·
I think "Natural horsemanship" is a term used to coin the latest fad of this generation of horse people.

Nothing we do to our horses is natural. However I do strive to know how to communicate with my horses like a "lead mare" might and in a way they understand. I can see my success at it too, as being able to move my horses in situations without any tack to guide them - In the round pen I can make them go, stop, turn into me, guide them into a sidepass, movement of hips and forequarters - If I let three or four of my horses into the barn aisle loose, I can direct them each into their stalls without a rope. My good lesson horses can run around bareback and bridleless with me. To me that is not very impressive, it is simply understanding communication and hours and hours and hours of training and preparation. Nothing anyone else couldn't do given the appropriate tools.

As far as a "relationship" goes...Yeah, okay, I think my horses like me. I don't think it's some "Oh , Precious only loves me because I'm her human and I do only natural horsemanship..." BS, but when I go to the barn they nicker at me. They come to me to halter them. When I take the halter off and put the bridle on, they turn their heads to me and accept the bit. They don't pin their ears or swish their tails at me. Again, just something you accomplish by spending time with them.

"Natural Horsemanship" is something people chose to coin on because it attracted people who don't know anything about a relationship with a horse and it told them they can be the gentlest, kindest person in the world and have a superior relationship with their horse than anyone else and it would all be sunshine and daisies and rainbows in the horse world.

I'm just not into it.

Clinton Anderson though, he is my style. He is not afraid to get after one and really get results, which sometimes happens in horsemanship of any kind. He replicates what a herd really does, without the fuzzy wuzzy stuff. That I like. It's not all sunshine and rainbows out here.
 
#18 ·
Pat Parelli trademarked the term Natural Horse-Man-Ship. Bill Dorrance' reaction was "You did it. You gave it a name, this horsemanship thing. For 50 years my brother and I have been calling this 'it'. It's now got a name. It's natural horsemanship."

That doesn't mean the Dorrance brothers thought everything Parelli did was right. When Pat asked Tom one time what would make the best round pen Tom said "Chicken wire, for cowboys like you who are too strong in the arm and not strong enough in the head. With chicken wire, you won't put too much pressure on the horse."

I think for Parelli the term boils down to using techniques that make sense to the horse. He started as a bronc rider and a colt starter and his early methods were pretty rough. After five years of working for Troy Henry he concluded that most of the previous approaches he had seen to dealing with horses had often been cruel and ineffective, so he wanted to share a better way.

If you want to say that good horsemanship would be a better label than natural horsemanship, and that there has always been good horsemanship all the way back to Xenophon, I wouldn't argue. Unfortunately, good horsemanship is still not common.
 
#19 ·
I hadn't really heard about it until I came here 10 years ago and after quite a lot of research I honestly believe its little more than a money making machine
I didn't ever treat my ponies or horses like machines and although my grt grampa was born in the days when horses were very much work animals he didn't ever treat them like machines either. His cobs were all treated like individuals with respect and kindness.
There were and still are people who are cruel to horses but NH will never change that mind set
Most of the NH stuff has been around for long before anyone called it NH so I fail to see why its considered a 'new' thing
 
#22 ·
Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, whether you stick NH in front of it, or traditional, and the NH label does not make methods that use empathy towards the horse,.
\ exclusive to NH trainers, nor is all NH labelled training programs kind or better.
There are good and bad trainers in each.
NH label has just been applied as a marketing tool, in an age where organic, natural, has the subliminal message that it is better.I could not even be bothered to watch Pat parelli at this year's Mane Event, but I think I passed him, walking out to one of the large arenas, to watch horsemen that I have so much more respect for, like Steve Rother and Doug Mills
I liked their approach to colt starting. When you can take acolt that has had a total of 4 one hour sessions in the round pen, then ride him through a pattern, drag a log ( yes, Tiny,, riding with just a halter), lope that horse both ways, swinging a rope, then that is horsemanship, with that colt for the first time in large arena, with a huge crowd, getting his confidence and focus from that trainer. Doug Mills, in his time for free style, took that halter off, and rode that colt at a lope , all over that large arena, with nothing on his head. This is a colt that was bucking in the round pen just two days previous.
Steve swung both a rope and cracked a bull whip, while loping his colt, and then carried a flag. He calls himself the `horse teacher`and not NH trainer

This is an exaMPLE, of what he achieves in 4 days on acolt. Yes, sped up for the competition, but that horse is relaxed and moving free

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheHorseteacher
 
#23 ·
Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, whether you stick NH in front of it, or traditional, and the NH label does not make methods that use empathy towards the horse,.
\ exclusive to NH trainers, nor is all NH labelled training programs kind or better.
There are good and bad trainers in each.
NH label has just been applied as a marketing tool, in an age where organic, natural, has the subliminal message that it is better.I could not even be bothered to watch Pat parelli at this year's Mane Event, but I think I passed him, walking out to one of the large arenas, to watch horsemen that I have so much more respect for, like Steve Rother and Doug Mills
I liked their approach to colt starting. When you can take acolt that has had a total of 4 one hour sessions in the round pen, then ride him through a pattern, drag a log ( yes, Tiny,, riding with just a halter), lope that horse both ways, swinging a rope, then that is horsemanship, with that colt for the first time in large arena, with a huge crowd, getting his confidence and focus from that trainer. Doug Mills, in his time for free style, took that halter off, and rode that colt at a lope , all over that large arena, with nothing on his head. This is a colt that was bucking in the round pen just two days previous.
Steve swung both a rope and cracked a bull whip, while loping his colt, and then carried a flag. He calls himself the `horse teacher`and not NH trainer

This is an exaMPLE, of what he achieves in 4 days on acolt. Yes, sped up for the competition, but that horse is relaxed and moving free

https://www.youtube.com/user/TheHorseteacher

not sure what you mean singling me out, but that's cool.

I agree that good horsemanship is good horsemanship.

how long has the "Mane event" been going on?

could it be that the Mane Event's origin has any connection with the growth in popularity of so-called Natural horsemanship?
 
#24 ·
Hi Tiny
Sorry, not meaning to single you out! Just tried to show that many trainers use techniques like your trainer, and don`t have the label NH attached
The Mane Event has been going on for , I think, at least ten years, and Is a hi light for me each year.
The colt starting challenge is just one aspect, as they also have clinics by various trainers in the two large arenas, plus all the horse shopping booths you could hope for!
There are also talks by equine nutritionists, dentists, saddle fitting demos,barefoot trimmers, farriers, and many other topics. One has to pick and chose, as the topics and events over lap

Here is some info, and the 4 trainers that took part this year

https://red-deer.maneeventexpo.com/clinicians/trainers-challenge/
 
#28 ·
...my point is that these sort of activities have only started happening as a result of the whole revolution in taking horse training 'to the people'. these sort of events are a by-product of the so-called "Naural" horsemanship revolution.
I'll have to disagree on this. Folks used to go watch effective trainers and riders demonstrate their ability, which was done in buildings designed specifically for it.

I think the big difference is that 100+ years ago, EVERYONE had to deal with horses in some fashion, so many who had no interest in them were forced to use them - for work. Now, many of us ride purely for the pleasure of being around horses. My approach to gaining a horse's trust may or may not be correct, but no working cowboy has the time to waste doing it my way.

Of course, a lot of working cowboys have a zillion times more experience around horses than I do, and about the same amount more riding skill than I do, so they have options I don't have. But it was a working cowboy who did this to Trooper, so not all working cowboys have the sense God gives a goose:



To the extent that working with a horse or trying to understand a horse defines natural horsemanship, it has always existed.

OTOH, I spent 2 hours yesterday watching videos by Pat and Linda Parelli. Not everything they did or said was wrong, but plenty of it showed no understanding at all. The 3 people they were 'helping' didn't know how to saddle a horse. Linda told one her horse was cinchy, not because the owner had used a poor-fitting saddle, or saddled up wrong, but because the horse's 'horsenality' didn't like being hugged...or something like that.

Pat Parelli, working with a "spooky horse" who was calmer than my horse's TURDS are, clearly viewed backing a horse up with a shaking lead line as a dominance thing - teaching him who the boss is. Smacking a horse in the face with the lead line and metal attachment isn't MY idea of working with a horse's nature! It might be an acceptable cue for backing, although I don't like it. I don't have to like a lot of things that work just fine. But there is nothing "natural" about smacking a horse's face to show him who the boss is - not when there are simple & QUIET ways of getting a horse to back up!

Dominance isn't a dirty word. Horses live in a society where dominance plays a big role. But there are dominant horses who are respected, and there are bully horses who are hated and whose influence extends only as far as their teeth can reach. I don't want MY dominance to be rooted in being a bully.

Bandit is the most submissive of my 3 horses. He is #3 of 3 in the corral. But oddly enough, if something strange is happening, he is the one the other two hide behind. He is the one expected to make decisions for them. And he accepts his role as decision-maker and protector, but an hour later either of the other 2 horses can chase him away from his food. The ways horses interact is obviously more complex than simply "He who bites hardest is the leader!"

I read a bunch of books last year about Custer's Last Stand. In one, there was a story by a guy who was split off, and found himself surrounded. He said he leaned forward and kissed his horse's neck, expecting to be dead within a minute. Moments later, the horse bolted, broke through, and by chance the man was reunited with others and survived. But what struck me was that a military guy freely admitted that what he expected to be his last act before dying consisted of kissing his horse goodbye!

And there is this 1895-ish story by Kipling:
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"But the Maltese Cat stood with his head down, wondering how many legs were left to him; and Lutyens watched the men and ponies pick themselves out of the wreck of the two goal-posts, and he patted the Cat very tenderly.

‘I say,’ said the captain of the Archangels, spitting a pebble out of his mouth, ‘will you take three thousand for that pony-as he stands?’

‘No, thank you. I’ve an idea he’s saved my life,’ said Lutyens...

...‘Hurrah! Bring him in,’ said the Archangels; and his sais, who was very happy indeed, patted the Maltese Cat on the flank, and he limped in to the blaze of light and the glittering uniforms, looking for Lutyens. He was used to messes, and men’s bedrooms, and places where ponies are not usually encouraged, and in his youth had jumped on and off a mess-table for a bet. So he behaved himself very politely, and ate bread dipped in salt, and was petted all round the table, moving gingerly; and they drank his health, because he had done more to win the Cup than any man or horse on the ground.

That was glory and honour enough for the rest of his days, and the Maltese Cat did not complain much when his veterinary surgeon said that he would be no good for polo any more. When Lutyens married, his wife did not allow him to play, so he was forced to be an umpire; and his pony on these occasions was a flea-bitten gray with a neat polo-tail, lame all round, but desperately quick on his feet, and, as everybody knew, Past Pluperfect Prestissimo Player of the Game."

https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/k/kipling/rudyard/days/chapter9.html
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There have always been people who loved horses, and who understood their nature and worked with it. Maybe not in the same way I would, but then again, maybe better! And those who loved horses always gathered around to watch a master trainer doing his thing.

"Therefore, everywhere - out-of-doors or in the haute ecole - success with horses is to him who applies this maxim of Baucher...

'Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.' There dwells an eternal equestrian truth!
"
 
#26 ·
Xenophon wrote 'The Art of Horsemanship' back in 350 BC or so. So no, 'Natural Horsemanship' is neither a new or radical idea, and those who claim it is are completely misinformed.


Buck Brannaman despises the term, and many people consider him the ultimate horse whisperer. I have to agree with Buck; it's a stupid term designed to make people feel warm fuzzies about their 'special bond' with their horsie. Time, respect, good training, and proper discipline at the proper time are what form bonds, not 'magickal' tack, 'horsenality' garbage, or 'games'.
 
#27 ·
To me Natural Horsemanship is a way to separate empty nesters from their money. People act as if this hasn't always been around , but until Parelli named it, it was just called training a hoss. Ray Hunt was doing it in the 70's the Dorrance brothers in the 50's and 60's, My Grandfatheer was doing it in the 40's, John Solomon Rarey, was doing it in the 1850's. Hell, as speed racer points out Xenophon was writing about it before Christ. As it says in Ecclesiastes, there is nothing new under the sun!
 
#29 ·
I've read Xenophon's The Art of Horsemanship a couple of times (also his Anabasis, which is a fascinating look at the ancient world and should be made into a movie). I still find clinician live demos and DVDs to be very helpful. My grandfather and my father were both way too busy trying to scratch out a living to spend the time they wanted to with the horses they loved.
 
#30 ·
I'll add this about bonding - in the military, I was told "shared misery" created a bond. A real bond doesn't come from a round pen. It comes from man & horse being challenged together, and prevailing together. That is why many cowboys or troopers or lowly trail riders have a strong bond with a horse, and why many "empty nesters" will fail to find it in a round pen or using a carrot stick.

It can happen in a dressage arena, a polo field, a ranch, or a neighborhood road. Working as a team to do something worthwhile creates a bond, as much of one as the personalities of the people and horses allow. Not a round pen, or poking their sides and calling it a game. It requires an element of risk to the rider, like the polo player in the story above "spitting a pebble out of his mouth". Without shared risk of failure, there is no shared achievement of success. Horses have "horse sense", and cannot be fooled forever.
 
#32 ·
All of the folks thinking riding tackless is magical don't seem to understand that those horses were all trained under saddle with bits and bridles before they could advance to tackless. It's an advanced riding form, not an end all-be all way of riding.


It's impressive, but it's not the first form of training. Horses have to be well trained and already respectful of their owners/trainers before they can go completely tackless, and if you show up at a ride or show and expect to ride Pookie tackless, you're going to be sent home, and rightfully so.
 
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