What in the world is going on here? - Page 7
   

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What in the world is going on here?

This is a discussion on What in the world is going on here? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

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        04-10-2013, 03:20 PM
      #61
    Started
    [QUOTE=Annanoel;2185361]...I actually had an EX-trainer use one and broke her horses teeth when the buckle hit...QUOTE]

    This is a very important bit of info for us; thanks! I heard of another horse who got nerve damage under his chin from the "whanging", also, & read of a chiropractor who told a PNH student that the whanging caused her horse to have chiro problems in its spine, because the head raises & back hollows & hind legs stiffen, to back up via whanging. (Thanks to poster who priorly brought this up, too!)

    So there we have 3 separate issues: teeth, nerve damage, & chiro problems, from backing the horse via whanging/phase 3-4 rope technique. (Really, there are 5 phases, 4 is whanging with one's whole arm side-to-side, then 5 is the sending of energy down the rope with a firm wrist flick to "clunk" on the horse's chin.)

    Based upon these issues, I plan on eliminating high-phase whanging unless the horse is endangering me to the point where there's no alternative, for me at my present level of skill/development.

    In place of the increasing phases for backing, is the teaching of the horse to follow the feel of your hand under his chin, guiding him in a soft, level-headed, unstrained way, such as Bill Dorrance shows in his book, "True Horsemanship Through Feel", & Buck also takes the time to teach the horse this, extending to the horse learning to keep a float in the line whatever Buck asks him to do (sidepass, hindquarter, forequarter, etc.)
    Annanoel and tbcrazy like this.
         
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        04-10-2013, 03:30 PM
      #62
    Yearling
    Finished watching it. All I can say is wth and that horse must have a head ache and a half! I'm surprised he didn't blow up and take her out. I know my mare would be up on her back legs if someone was nipping at her constantly like that. All I see there is fear and a situation where, if that horse was the sort to say F...you puny human, it could have got very nasty.
    Not a cool thing for anyone to do IMO
         
        04-10-2013, 07:56 PM
      #63
    Weanling
    [quote=Northern;2187345]
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Annanoel    
    ...I actually had an EX-trainer use one and broke her horses teeth when the buckle hit...QUOTE]

    This is a very important bit of info for us; thanks! I heard of another horse who got nerve damage under his chin from the "whanging", also, & read of a chiropractor who told a PNH student that the whanging caused her horse to have chiro problems in its spine, because the head raises & back hollows & hind legs stiffen, to back up via whanging. (Thanks to poster who priorly brought this up, too!)

    So there we have 3 separate issues: teeth, nerve damage, & chiro problems, from backing the horse via whanging/phase 3-4 rope technique. (Really, there are 5 phases, 4 is whanging with one's whole arm side-to-side, then 5 is the sending of energy down the rope with a firm wrist flick to "clunk" on the horse's chin.)

    Based upon these issues, I plan on eliminating high-phase whanging unless the horse is endangering me to the point where there's no alternative, for me at my present level of skill/development.

    In place of the increasing phases for backing, is the teaching of the horse to follow the feel of your hand under his chin, guiding him in a soft, level-headed, unstrained way, such as Bill Dorrance shows in his book, "True Horsemanship Through Feel", & Buck also takes the time to teach the horse this, extending to the horse learning to keep a float in the line whatever Buck asks him to do (sidepass, hindquarter, forequarter, etc.)
    Great point, nice hearing that someone else agrees! I REALLY really dislike seeing a horse back up with its head up (unless it's a safety thing, in that case I don't care what they look like...). To me, that says that they are not using themselves properly- they can't get underneath themselves and push off with their back legs if their head is up, just not biomechanically possible. The back has to round for the back legs to be effective in backwards movement. Sure, you can get a horse to move fast backwards regardless of headset, but I like seeing a horse relaxed and slowly backing up to get a good stretch; it's also similar to lifting weights slowly or quickly (the slower the harder, and more effective an exercise it; the quicker the easier, but not necessarily as beneficial).

    I've yet too see a horse stay somewhat round and back up when a rope is wiggling in their face- they IMMEDIATELY go upside down, and I agree 100% with back problems being a result. My equine chiropractor and I work together to develop groundwork exercises that complement his work- and wiggling the rope to back up is way up on the top of the "no no" list. He sees a lot of horses that have hyoid problems as well, that are "wiggled" at. Mine move off of my hips and body, depending on where I place them. Again, if safety is an issue, I'll do what I have to do to get a horse out of my space; when it's regular work and developing a softness, no wiggling :)
    Northern likes this.
         
        04-10-2013, 08:32 PM
      #64
    Showing
    Let us not forget either the other video that showed up the first time this vid was posted. You know, the one where LP had a halter hanging on a wood fence and was proceeding to show a "student" the optimum way to "snap" the lead so that the heavy duty snap would dole out the most pain on the horse...thus making it respond .

    That particular video, of course, has since been the victim of a seek and destroy mission.
    AlexS and Muppetgirl like this.
         
        04-10-2013, 08:34 PM
      #65
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by smrobs    
    Let us not forget either the other video that showed up the first time this vid was posted. You know, the one where LP had a halter hanging on a wood fence and was proceeding to show a "student" the optimum way to "snap" the lead so that the heavy duty snap would dole out the most pain on the horse...thus making it respond .
    SERIOUSLY?! Ugh.
         
        04-10-2013, 08:36 PM
      #66
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by smrobs    
    Let us not forget either the other video that showed up the first time this vid was posted. You know, the one where LP had a halter hanging on a wood fence and was proceeding to show a "student" the optimum way to "snap" the lead so that the heavy duty snap would dole out the most pain on the horse...thus making it respond .

    That particular video, of course, has since been the victim of a seek and destroy mission.






    ^ They evolution of my emotions.
         
        04-10-2013, 08:40 PM
      #67
    Showing
    Oh, yes. That is one video that I watched only once and will remember until the day I die. Talk about disgusting.

    I mean, it's one thing for a truly experienced trainer to resort to pain when all else fails, but for anyone to purposefully teach a novice handler that....well, it's just deplorable IMHO.
         
        04-10-2013, 08:41 PM
      #68
    Started
    That's the phase 5 which I described: wind-up & send the energy spiraling down rope to whack the fence/chuck the horse.

    A student on that video segment asked Linda if it didn't tend to hurt the horse, & Linda replied that it's nothing compared to what another horse can/will do to an out-of-control beta horse. Seemed reasonable, till I learned of broken teeth, damaged nerves, & chiro problems.
         
        04-10-2013, 08:47 PM
      #69
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northern    
    That's the phase 5 which I described: wind-up & send the energy spiraling down rope to whack the fence/chuck the horse.

    A student on that video segment asked Linda if it didn't tend to hurt the horse, & Linda replied that it's nothing compared to what another horse can/will do to an out-of-control beta horse. Seemed reasonable, till I learned of broken teeth, damaged nerves, & chiro problems.
    That's disgusting :/

    When I think about "what another horse will do", I have yet to see a horse go after another one holding a chunk of metal with the idea of connecting with the other horse's chin... I can see a smack on the shoulder...neck...hip...but not chin...

    That's where people get in trouble- they take a human action and project that "oh, in nature they will do that", in many cases where no, it is not what a horse would do in nature.
    EliRose likes this.
         
        04-10-2013, 09:17 PM
      #70
    Started
    Probably the argument of what another horse'd do to a horse should be left out of human handling issues, since horses have been known to be both light & perplexingly harsh on each other. (Of course, they've had to be predominantly light/supportive of each other's wellbeing in order to survive in wild herds).

    Always, the rule for humans is to be as light/non-damaging as possible, to preserve their horses.
    loosie likes this.
         

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