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What's with all the haters?

This is a discussion on What's with all the haters? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Whats with all the haters

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    07-23-2011, 05:35 PM
  #21
Started
My perspective on the question....a lot of it comes down to attitude. I can only speak from a Parelli perspective seeing as that is the program I follow. If we have to correct a horse, we do so without any emotion. There is no "Hey!" or "Quit!" or jerking, smacking, hitting, kicking, etc. All of that is predatory behavior that does not work on prey animals. We are always offering the horse a way to become comfortable and we have to set it up so it's easy for him to find that 'open door.' Do you have that attitude of justice, or do you carry a predatory attitude that has a foundation of "showing the horse who is boss?"
     
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    07-23-2011, 05:52 PM
  #22
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirithorse    
My perspective on the question....a lot of it comes down to attitude. I can only speak from a Parelli perspective seeing as that is the program I follow. If we have to correct a horse, we do so without any emotion. There is no "Hey!" or "Quit!" or jerking, smacking, hitting, kicking, etc. All of that is predatory behavior that does not work on prey animals. We are always offering the horse a way to become comfortable and we have to set it up so it's easy for him to find that 'open door.' Do you have that attitude of justice, or do you carry a predatory attitude that has a foundation of "showing the horse who is boss?"
Well, IMO, hitting, smacking, even yelling something like "stop" or "no" mimics horse behavior---horses don't let other horses find "the open door" they say "back the heck off or my back hooves are going to go in your face" or "I told you to leave me alone, now I'm going to tell you with my teeth" and they certainly make enough noises, and not all of them are happy nickers when they see their best friends. Of course that is assuming you follow the golden rule of training, which is timing.
     
    07-23-2011, 06:13 PM
  #23
Doe
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirithorse    
My perspective on the question....a lot of it comes down to attitude. I can only speak from a Parelli perspective seeing as that is the program I follow. If we have to correct a horse, we do so without any emotion. There is no "Hey!" or "Quit!" or jerking, smacking, hitting, kicking, etc. All of that is predatory behavior that does not work on prey animals. We are always offering the horse a way to become comfortable and we have to set it up so it's easy for him to find that 'open door.' Do you have that attitude of justice, or do you carry a predatory attitude that has a foundation of "showing the horse who is boss?"
Tblver
Quote:
Well, IMO, hitting, smacking, even yelling something like "stop" or "no" mimics horse behavior---horses don't let other horses find "the open door" they say "back the heck off or my back hooves are going to go in your face" or "I told you to leave me alone, now I'm going to tell you with my teeth" and they certainly make enough noises, and not all of them are happy nickers when they see their best friends. Of course that is assuming you follow the golden rule of training, which is timing.
Thank you both for your posts.

Spirit - emotion removed, what is the difference? You correct the horse for it's mistakes and await at the response you want (in a perfect world). Ie pressure and release, ie negative reinforcement.

TB the same - negative reinforcement.

So as per my original question, what is the difference? Ie why the NH forum when actually the methods are the same?
     
    07-23-2011, 06:16 PM
  #24
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirithorse    
My perspective on the question....a lot of it comes down to attitude. I can only speak from a Parelli perspective seeing as that is the program I follow. If we have to correct a horse, we do so without any emotion. There is no "Hey!" or "Quit!" or jerking, smacking, hitting, kicking, etc. All of that is predatory behavior that does not work on prey animals. We are always offering the horse a way to become comfortable and we have to set it up so it's easy for him to find that 'open door.' Do you have that attitude of justice, or do you carry a predatory attitude that has a foundation of "showing the horse who is boss?"

This is really the core of the problem in a nutshell.

I do not agree with your explanation of correction at all.

Horses have emotions and so do humans.

Emotions have nothing to do with eating vegies or meat.

I have no problem with opening doors but that also has nothing to do with my food source.

I have seen a horse straight out kill a squirrel and a goat and a dog.
I have seen a horse kill another horse.
Are they predators too?
Can they carry a predatory attitude?

People are so busy trying to separate the horse from the human and make them so different from each other that they miss the similarities.
     
    07-23-2011, 06:20 PM
  #25
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spirithorse    
My perspective on the question....a lot of it comes down to attitude. I can only speak from a Parelli perspective seeing as that is the program I follow. If we have to correct a horse, we do so without any emotion. There is no "Hey!" or "Quit!" or jerking, smacking, hitting, kicking, etc. All of that is predatory behavior that does not work on prey animals. We are always offering the horse a way to become comfortable and we have to set it up so it's easy for him to find that 'open door.' Do you have that attitude of justice, or do you carry a predatory attitude that has a foundation of "showing the horse who is boss?"

I'd be interested to know how you would correct a horse if you didn't smack it? =/ Because my trainers use Parelli like following what he does for groundwork, but they are very firm in discipline.
     
    07-23-2011, 06:24 PM
  #26
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe    
I'd love to hear people's perspective on this question...............
Dear Doe

I wish I could direct you to a thread I made in mid-June in the Talk to The Team Section.

Wonder if there is a way to have it moved to a public area?

How do I start a poll, and would this be acceptable?
Poll

Do you agree that Natural Horsemanship should be moved from the Training section to the Riding section?

I feel awkward posting to the Training Section of the forum because I am not a trainer, nor qualified to give advice. I do read most of the posts there and try to learn from them.

I do not visit the NH section as often. I started there but quickly found most posts were about whether someone approved of or liked NH or a particular professional, that is as opposed to people just casually talking about their experiences. Whether they be low-level or more or less experienced.

The Riding Section seems to be a bit more casual, not necessarily claiming to be or asking for Trainer/Professional level advice, but rather peer level input and discussion.

There are some who will claim that it is NOT riding so does not belong in the Riding Section. That they see many who never ride their horses, or do much of anything. My feeling on that is two-fold:

First, NH is riding as well as on-line work, and off-line work. There are people who do NOT practice NH who do NOT ride their horses much if at all, also. I've boarded at 5 different barns over the many years and at each place there were a number of people who did NOT ride, or rarely get on their horses. I have never boarded at a NH type barn, although some were more friendly than others. Many of these non-riders were middle aged women, I think I'm past that now into the older category, but I do ride, and I have been middle-aged and I rode even then.

Second, The Riding Section is broken down to Style Sections, then further into sub-forums of those. Included in the Main Sections are Showmanship and Driving. They certainly are not Riding Styles, maybe the main Section called Riding would be more aptly named Horsemanship, if it were would you be more willing to accept NH into that arena?



Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/talk-team/...#ixzz1SyBQj600

Thank you very much for your reply, in as much as other Team members hopefully will be reading and considering my request I will address what you have said. Please do not take offense.

NH is a training method and the riding part is the result and not the means to it.

Driving and showmanship are styles of riding as opposed to training

I feel that Training overall is somewhat specialized. One goes to a Reining trainer if that is what they do, same for WP, English, Jumping, Dressage, Barrels, Driving, and many others. And agreeably the riding part is the result and not the means to it. Why should NH be set apart and treated differently than the others?

Further then, if the Training Section is not divided into the separate style categories, why should NH be set apart and treated differently than the others? (please note this is not what I am requesting).

Thank you for your time, courtesy, and consideration.

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/talk-team/...#ixzz1SyBlmQxl
     
    07-23-2011, 06:25 PM
  #27
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by HorseSavvy    
Why is this section of the forum crawling with haters? So many of the posts I see in here bash NH methods. I thought this was suppossed to be a section to discuss NH? Come on, people, let's all chill out. Just because someone doesn't share your opinion on horse training doesn't give you the right to bash them or their training methods. Can we please be civilized and show a little respect for both our opinions and eachother?
Ditto..
     
    07-23-2011, 06:29 PM
  #28
Doe
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marecare    
This is really the core of the problem in a nutshell.

I do not agree with your explanation of correction at all.

Horses have emotions and so do humans.

Emotions have nothing to do with eating vegies or meat.

I have no problem with opening doors but that also has nothing to do with my food source.

I have seen a horse straight out kill a squirrel and a goat and a dog.
I have seen a horse kill another horse.
Are they predators too?
Can they carry a predatory attitude?

People are so busy trying to separate the horse from the human and make them so different from each other that they miss the similarities.
Mare care

An interesting question.
The subtle difference is in the motive. Horses can herd and horses can kill. However the difference is in the motivation.
Horses do not hunt their food. A predator by nature relies on flesh as it's food source. Horses may kill but they do not hunt. They graze.
     
    07-23-2011, 06:33 PM
  #29
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by maura    
Here's my .2 cents as to why NH invites so much negative attention -

First of all, by segregating themselves from other horseman by calling themselves "Natural Horseman", thereby implying the rest of us are unnatural.

By making it seem like "natural horsemanship" is something special, separate and apart rather than just the principles of good horsmanship. Understanding the horse's body language and herd behavior, training without pain or fear and using pressure and release have been around since Xenophon, and good trainers have been using them since then. Why the need to brand it as something new?

The PT Barnum type marketing approach and product branding of some of the current NH gurus.

The exploititive nature of some of the NH trainers that has lead many novices to believe that they can learn to train horses from watching DVDs.

To sum up, I find the principles of the so called "NH" to be interesting and useful tools for any trainer's tool box. I find some of the current NH trainers to be very interesting, well worth watching and learning from, and incorporate some of their ideas into my own work with horses.

I find the business and marketing phenomenon known as Natural Horsemanship to be ridiculous and some times dangerous.

So that's "what's with all the haters."

This is perfect. Very well said, Maura. I would also add that, at least for me, I think a good bit of the argument (in my case perhaps a bit defensive?) comes from the "NH people" who strictly follow a particular clinician like he/she is a saint to be worshipped, can do no worng, and their particular "way" works on EVERY horse. I am not a fan af ANYONE who cannot see others opinions and goes around with a closed mind. This would not be most prevelant when it comes to NH, Religion and politics. Lol They become almost rabid in their defense of their "god"!
     
    07-23-2011, 09:08 PM
  #30
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doe    
Mare care

An interesting question.
The subtle difference is in the motive. Horses can herd and horses can kill. However the difference is in the motivation.
Horses do not hunt their food. A predator by nature relies on flesh as it's food source. Horses may kill but they do not hunt. They graze.

I think that is a matter of semantics.

A herd of secretaries descend on the lunch buffet to graze on a big veggie plate.

Horses hunting for more nutritious and sustaining grass to fatten for winter.

Horses hunt for shelter.

People that flock together like a herd even though they don't agree with each other.

I don't kill for sport.
Does that make me a prey animal?

We are more alike than many want to consider.

I can spook at a strange shape.
I can go off my feed if I am too hot or cold or in a strange place.
I am relaxed with friends and nervous around strangers that I do not know their intentions.
I don't like being told what to do and like being asked.
My feet are sore without shoes but if I go barefoot for a month or so they toughen up.

Look of the similarities and not the differences.
     

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