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post #11 of 20 Old 04-16-2010, 12:14 PM
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That may be the case, Pechos. It's offhanded remarks like that which I find disparaging. I'm sure it wasn't meant that way but it's quite offensive.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just explaining why I'm right.

Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.


It's not always what you say but what they hear.
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post #12 of 20 Old 04-16-2010, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by iridehorses View Post
That may be the case, Pechos. It's offhanded remarks like that which I find disparaging. I'm sure it wasn't meant that way but it's quite offensive.
There seems to be a mindset among many NH followers that the horse-training techniques used by the big-name clinicians are something entirely new.

Monty Roberts seemed especially determined to make it sound as though every horse west of the Mississippi was trained using abuse and force until he came along.

There is no secret to horse training. Some people have more of a talent for it than others, but it's not something that requires large amounts of money for gadgets and DVD sets in order to learn.

Just because a horse hasn't been trained by someone who has "been through the levels" of some NH guru's program, doesn't mean the trainer was incompetent or rough. I'd be more likely to send a horse to a "cowboy" for training, than someone who was certified by one of the guru training programs.
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post #13 of 20 Old 04-16-2010, 03:58 PM
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Those are some very good points Jolly. I think the mind set that many people have is the Monte Roberts idea that before him cowboys used to blindfold their horses, or snub them up to a post, or throw them down before riding them - anything to "break" them. That is so far from the truth.

The Dorance brothers, Ray Hunt, John Lyons, and others are cowboys but great technicians. I know many cowboys that earn their living on horseback and they are some of the most patient people on the planet earth when it comes to their horses.

It's the backyard yahoo, wannabe with a cheap Western saddle and cheaper cowboy boots that fosters the misconception.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just explaining why I'm right.

Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.


It's not always what you say but what they hear.

Last edited by iridehorses; 04-16-2010 at 04:01 PM.
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post #14 of 20 Old 04-16-2010, 04:52 PM
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Iride: I agree with you. Comments like that can be kind of a degrading remark/meaning. I also agree with Jolly and You...I would rather send my horse to a real cowboy rather than to someone who claims they do NH and end up messing up my horse. People have to keep in mind that horses can be extremely rough, so why not be rough back?? I can be pretty rough with my horses sometimes, but sometimes...they deserve it. The only horse I'm not rough with is my Girl, and that's because, thanks to me, she's the best out of all 3 of em'.

- If today was your last day, and tomorrow was too late, could you say goodbye to yesterday?
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post #15 of 20 Old 04-19-2010, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by iridehorses View Post
Those are some very good points Jolly. I think the mind set that many people have is the Monte Roberts idea that before him cowboys used to blindfold their horses, or snub them up to a post, or throw them down before riding them - anything to "break" them. That is so far from the truth.

The Dorance brothers, Ray Hunt, John Lyons, and others are cowboys but great technicians. I know many cowboys that earn their living on horseback and they are some of the most patient people on the planet earth when it comes to their horses.

It's the backyard yahoo, wannabe with a cheap Western saddle and cheaper cowboy boots that fosters the misconception.
The funny thing is. . .I've read of some of the big-name NH clinicians using and endorsing the use of things that their followers otherwise consider rough, abusive "cowboy-style" methods.

As it often happens, they simply re-name thing thing to make it sound gentle and harmless. The snubbing post, for example, has been renamed the "patience pole." A lunge whip is now a "carrot stick."

Now, an untrained novice or all-around idiot could do just as much damage and abuse to a horse using a patience pole and a carrot stick as s/he could using a snubbing post or a whip. . .but somehow, if they learned about it from a NH guru, it makes everything okay.
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post #16 of 20 Old 04-19-2010, 03:38 PM
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Any tool in the wrong hands, used by someone who is uneducated to their use is dangerous.

A snubbing post is not the same as tying your horse to the trailer for an hour or two. The snubbing post was used on an unbroke horse. The horse was tied with his face touching the post so it couldn't move while a rider got on - hardly the same thing.

A dressage whip - or carrot stick - is a very useful tool but not one to be used for discipline.

Laying a horse down is also a useful tool as a last resort on some horses (remember the movie The Horse Whisperer). When you dramatically force a horse to the ground and tie him there - then cover him in tarps or sit on him just to prove dominance - that is the difference between a technique and stupidity.

Please do not confuse the methods.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just explaining why I'm right.

Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.


It's not always what you say but what they hear.

Last edited by iridehorses; 04-19-2010 at 03:40 PM.
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post #17 of 20 Old 04-19-2010, 03:59 PM
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Cowboys usually live a long way from town and often ride by themselves in remote and rough country. They are the first ones to adopt any method to make that safer. I don't know any full time cowboy that just "rides it out" that is putting himself, his equipment and his livelyhood at stake. Most cowboys do not have health insurance or workers compensation so if they break a leg being stupid on a horse they and thier family run out of money pretty quick.

I resent the commonly held belief that cowboys are rough with thier horses. Monty Roberts was taught at a young age the "cowboy" method of training by his father who wouldn't make a pimple on a real cowboys ass. The revolution in horsemanship is easily traced back to The Dorrance brothers, Bill, Tom and Frank. What was thier lifelong occupation? Cowboy. They did not invent any of what they taught either. It was handed down from older cowboys. Bill Dorrance died in 1999 at the age of 96 (I think) and he was a young man when he started learning these "new methods" from older cowboys. Ray Hunt was a ranch cowboy in Nevada when he met Tom Dorrance and that is how the whole clinic thing was started. Buck Brannaman, Brian Nuebert, Tom Curtin and many others followed that same tradition and I am certain that there are young cowboys that are working to continue in thier work that we will someday be quoting on the horse forums.

"Natural Horsemanship" did not trickle down to cowboys, it sprang to life from the sweat, blood and experiences of cowboys.

John Lyons however was never a cowboy. I believe he was an insurance salesman before he became a horse clinician. I have nothing against him but I have seen him handle a rope and he couldn't catch a cold with one in January.

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post #18 of 20 Old 04-19-2010, 04:21 PM
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I read somewhere that the round pen was created by cowboys, it was easier to train a horse in one. I personally love Monty Roberts! I also love Clinton! And I do like Ray hunt, I don't know a whole lot about him to make me love him tho! LOL And IMO "Natural Horsemanship" (Even tho I do love it) is an oxymoron because nothing we do to a horse is natural, for them.
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post #19 of 20 Old 04-28-2010, 10:58 PM
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I'm not sure if you're in the US or not, but if you have access to RFD-TV, you'll be able to see bits and pieces of all the current NH trainers out there. I personally like Chris Cox and Clinton Anderson, although Clinton does seem to be hopping onto the marketing bandwagon a bit at this point. As other have said, it's all basically the same principles. Some are more assertive while others just tell you to hope the horse does what you ask which is not training in my opinion. Please don't let any of them force you to spend $200 on a $20 whip or training cones of a magic color. Just find an effective method for you as a starting point and work it out in a way that works for you and your horse. Good luck.

You just have to see your distance...you don't have to like it.
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post #20 of 20 Old 05-02-2010, 05:43 AM
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I second the recommendation of Chris Cox, absolutely love that guy
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