Why even use a bit? - Page 14
 
 

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Why even use a bit?

This is a discussion on Why even use a bit? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category
  • Gypsy horses use rope halters

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    10-11-2012, 09:02 AM
  #131
Super Moderator
Here's my point: I do not care if you use a bit ALL THE TIME but you SHOULD be able to control your horse without a bit at any given time. If you cannot, you and your horse do not have clear communication. If you rely on a bit to be able to ride, you shouldn't be riding.
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I don't think I have ever heard such a load of pompous crap
Who on earth do you think you are dictating like this?
Its obvious that you've never ridden a horse that's super fit and got some real 'go' in it over a complicated cross country course or you wouldn't be saying stuff like it.
There were loads of kids in my area - including me - who rode our ponies bareback in halters and stood up on their backs going along the road too. Its a rite of passage sort of thing. A lot of those ponies came from gypsy horse dealers - they weren't well trained, we weren't great riders and we all spent our fair share of time in hospital waiting rooms. Being able to ride in a rope halter proves absolutely nothing to me about how good someone is. Mostly we were just showing off. Kids do that a lot.
Before you do any more preaching about what negligent owners we are because you feel we have such gaps in our horses training you might try managing your property better since according to what of your other threads you have a horse there that is constantly pooing out worms. Now that is a serious probem which means all of your other horses are going to have the same worm burden - I'm amazed they even have the energy to go forwards. Its real easy to stop a horse in a rope halter if you are having to bang the sides out of it to make it go - basically you just stop kicking
     
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    10-11-2012, 09:32 AM
  #132
Foal
Did not read all of the replies, but here is my two cents for what it's worth. My TWH mare is particular about bits LOL. I have her an Indian Hackamore AND a very low port TWH bit. In the Indian Hackamore, I have the control to turn her left and right, to stop her, and that's about it. It's fine for riding around in the fields and playing. I like it. BUT, on a serious trail ride, I prefer a bit and here is why: TWHs have an awesome NATURAL gait. It's part of why a lot of trail riders love them.. but with many walkers, they do kind of depend on their rider to "hold them" in their gait.. and that requires contact with their mouth and encouragement with horses like mine. She will not gait in her hackamore. She gaits beautifully and just flies in her bit. It really depends on what I'm doing with her and what I am asking of her what works best.

I don't like the bit vs no bit debates. It's like the Stay home mom vs. the working mom crap. Do what works for each situation... don't worry about what other people are doing or why. It's just not that important nor is it anyone's business. You can possibly know every person, every horse, every family, every situation. I've been riding for 25 years and training/breaking horses since I was 12... every single horse is different and every rider is different.
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    10-11-2012, 09:45 AM
  #133
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSL    
It is possible. I do it daily.

My job needs horses, so same difference. Everyone can make time though to work with their horse at least an hour a day. It makes a difference.
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Actually, this is untrue. I have 3 children of my own and both my hunny and I are full time military. Tuesday-Friday, I get them up every morning at 0530, I'm at work by 0700. I leave work at 1730 and have to get the kids by 1800. At 1800 it's starting to get dark and I have to feed the kids and get them to their activities (baseball, ballet, 4-H, etc). Please, tell me where I have time for an hour of riding a day... b/c I'm doing my best and my horses are WELL cared for.. but I physically CANNOT ride an hour a day. My hunny works an hour away with the same work hours... so he gets home an hour after I do.
     
    10-11-2012, 09:56 AM
  #134
Showing
KSL works from home y'all, on her parents' property. Her horses are in her parents' barn so she doesn't have to pay board, which the majority of horse owners do.

She either has a home based business or one that involves riding horses on a daily basis, depending on what thread you're reading.

So whichever one is true, she has absolutely NO CLUE how the real world works, and that people actually have jobs they have to go to in order to afford their homes and horses.
     
    10-11-2012, 10:04 AM
  #135
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSL    
Problem?
Posted via Mobile Device
Yep.

You claim to be a pro working with horses, and to be experienced with bits & training horses...but you don't know what an eggbutt snaffle is used for? You are ready to tell people that all horses should be trained to ride bitless, as though riding a horse bitless requires some special level of training, but you don't know anything about using an eggbutt snaffle?

I conclude you don't know squat about bits & thus aren't qualified to start an argument about the inferiority of horses using bits. How can you say "Why even use a bit?" if you don't know about one of the most basic & commonly used bits?
     
    10-11-2012, 10:13 AM
  #136
KSL
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Racer    
KSL works from home y'all, on her parents' property. Her horses are in her parents' barn so she doesn't have to pay board, which the majority of horse owners do.

She either has a home based business or one that involves riding horses on a daily basis, depending on what thread you're reading.

So whichever one is true, she has absolutely NO CLUE how the real world works, and that people actually have jobs they have to go to in order to afford their homes and horses.
Both actually. My business is home based and in my free time I I ranch work for my sick dad. Which involves horses.
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    10-11-2012, 10:15 AM
  #137
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSL    
Both actually. My business is home based and in my free time I I ranch work for my sick dad. Which involves horses.
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That's great for you. Not all of us are able to do that.
     
    10-11-2012, 10:15 AM
  #138
Trained
I think that KLS is a kid that is in over her head in this conversation.

Some of us have been riding before your mother was born, child. We do know what we are doing. Our horses are healthy, happy, and well mannered.

To all bitless people: Show is some video footage. I want to see walk, trot, slow lope, hand gallop, turns, circles, roll backs, side passes, backing, spinning, and roping. I would also like to see your trophies for first place trophies at reining competitions. Then I would like to see you take an extremely hot Arab and ride her at a slow canter toward her barn. Her head needs to be low. We're looking for peanut rolling. All in a halter. A bit would be cruel, right? Oh, don't forget to slow lope a four year old OTTB out in an open field, do a rollback toward the barn, gallop for five strides, then slow to a lope again.............
     
    10-11-2012, 10:18 AM
  #139
KSL
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighstepperLove    
That's great for you. Not all of us are able to do that.
Never said that was a bad thing.
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    10-11-2012, 10:26 AM
  #140
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher    
i long for the day that the bitted/bitless debate is resolved using sound mechanical and biological facts, rather than using individual examples of horses and personal experience of riders.

And on that note:


Yes the pressure will be in different places, but X pressure in X direction can always be clearly distinguished from Y pressure in Y direction, regardless of bitted or bitless. This is a simple mechanical fact because there is nothing about bits through the mouth or nosebands around the nose that impedes the transmission of a changing or constant directional pressure...

So explain to me how there is any difference in precision, without telling me about a horse.
Well, a loop of rope hanging around the nose does NOT mechanically give the direct, focused cue that a bar across the jaw does. Imagine holding a bit in your fist. You will feel slight pressure on the bit far better than you will if someone puts a rope around your fist.

It works that way with horses. Yes, a rope bitless bridle WILL allow you to put their face around even when they are excited. However, it will NOT allow you to use a lagging rein. By that I mean take an excited horse and as each shoulder moves forward, lag with the rein on that side. Don't pull BACK, just move the rein with your little finger a hair behind the horse's shoulder moving.

Horses understand that as 'don't move that front leg so far forward in your stride'. That is what I was told, and it worked like that with my mare who had NOT been given any training on it. We worked with it at a walk and at a trot. Now, when she gets all wound up about cantering and either wants to move into a canter while at a trot, or wants to string herself out on the front end while at a canter, I can use a lagging rein to 'collect' her. Not to put her into a collected gait, but to keep her moving with her rear while her front end takes slightly shorter front steps, balancing her and relaxing her.

This proved invaluable when I needed to teach her to canter with a rider. She was clueless, and our first few attempts were dangerous. She had her nose inches above the ground and the vast majority of her weight on her front legs. She was flailing, and it felt like we were going to flip arse over tincups.

You cannot do that with a rope circle around the nose.

You also cannot turn the rein like you are starting a car with a key, and have the horse respond by keeping its shoulder up. They just do not feel a rope sliding on their nose with the precision that they feel a bar across their jaw. A rope halter, and I rode with them exclusively my first 3 years of riding, just is NOT mechanically as precise.

Take a look at this picture. Notice where on the horse the rope halter is working, vs a bit in the mouth:





The same is true of pulling their head to a more vertical position. Pull both reins back with a rope halter, and it will first move up on their face. That is not nearly as precise as a bar located in their mouth near the tip of their nose. I am NOT talking about forcing a horse into a frame. I'm talking about getting a very excited or frightened horse to yield.

A rope halter, even if it is designed as a bridle, is NOT as precise and does NOT give the leverage that a bit in the mouth does.
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