Why force?? - Page 3
 
 

       The Horse Forum > Training Horses > Natural Horsemanship

Why force??

This is a discussion on Why force?? within the Natural Horsemanship forums, part of the Training Horses category

     
    LinkBack Thread Tools
        07-08-2009, 10:40 AM
      #21
    Started
    Of course the horse will give you feedback on how he feels in the environment. I wasn't talking about how the horse responds to his environment in my last post, I was talking about how the horse responds to us.
         
    Sponsored Links
    Advertisement
     
        07-08-2009, 12:11 PM
      #22
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Scoutrider    
    Well said, Brumby!

    Thank-you.
         
        07-08-2009, 09:18 PM
      #23
    Foal
    I agree with Spirithorse. When we are with horses, we are the herd leader and they look to us to gauge our reaction to things. If we hear a whip crack and we jump, 99% of the time, the horse will jump too. If we are nervous, then they think that maybe we are not a good leader and will take over as the leader. This is sometimes seen as bad manners, but is usually because the horse doesn't trust our leadership abilities.
    Australian NH trainer Carlos Tabernaberri says that 'we should not punish the horse for reacting to our reactions'. For example, the owner is nervous and jumpy on a windy show day. A bag flies past and the horse, seeing that the owner is nervous, assumes they aren't a good leader and tries to bolt. The owner sees this as being naughty, flighty or silly. Two things can happen. The owner can hit the horse. The horse will probably stand still again, but the next time a bag flies past they will have the same response. Or the owner can prove to the horse that the bag is not going to hurt. This also comes with a relaxed owner. Next time the bag flies past, the horse will understand that the bag won't hurt them.
    The 'founder' of NH, Pat Parelli (apparently he's big over in America), says that NH is about rejecting force as a training tool. I don't follow Parelli because it's becoming very commercial, but I do follow the basics.
    As for the ruined horse...even after we got his back fixed, he still bucked because he was expecting to get hit. Yes, it is natural instinct for the horse to be checked for pain, but no-one here, even the instructors, thought to check. Here in Australia, very little is known about chiropractors and their work. Since then I have made every effort to check for pain and to learn about it, but I was young and knew little.
    I would like to add that the horse in question is going very well. Most would have sold him on, but he has potential and we kept him to help correct him. He's 15hh and has jumped 4'9!
    ________________
    Confident, Consistent, Kind Leadership = Trust, Obedience and Respect
         
        07-08-2009, 09:46 PM
      #24
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by darkwillow    
    I agree with Spirithorse. When we are with horses, we are the herd leader and they look to us to gauge our reaction to things.

    Wait, didn't you say that horses see us as predators, and now you're saying we're the herd leaders. Furthermore, if they see as the herd leader, shouldn't we ACT like the herd leader? If a lower horse is disrespectful, they'll get a warning, then they get nailed.

    If we hear a whip crack and we jump, 99% of the time, the horse will jump too. If we are nervous, then they think that maybe we are not a good leader and will take over as the leader. This is sometimes seen as bad manners, but is usually because the horse doesn't trust our leadership abilities.
    Australian NH trainer Carlos Tabernaberri says that 'we should not punish the horse for reacting to our reactions'. For example, the owner is nervous and jumpy on a windy show day. A bag flies past and the horse, seeing that the owner is nervous, assumes they aren't a good leader and tries to bolt. The owner sees this as being naughty, flighty or silly. Two things can happen. The owner can hit the horse. The horse will probably stand still again, but the next time a bag flies past they will have the same response. Or the owner can prove to the horse that the bag is not going to hurt. This also comes with a relaxed owner. Next time the bag flies past, the horse will understand that the bag won't hurt them.

    I agree, if we're nervous they'll be nervous. Personally, I have never met a good horse person who would punish a horse for being startled by something, especially if we jumped as well. The best way to deal with it, IMO, is get the horse busy. Give them something to think about, beyond the scary plastic bag. Old horse I used to ride used to practically look for things to spook at when he was bored. But if I kept his brain busy by keeping his feet moving, he was fine. "Oooh look, a bag. Wait, I have to leg yield now. OOH, you want me to go into a canter, okay! Wait, you want a circle here? Can Do!" Funny side note, but another horse I used to ride, someone would crack a whip, or snow would fall off the roof, and I'd jump a foot in the air (I have a bad startle reflex). He could care less, and would just keep going.

    The 'founder' of NH, Pat Parelli (apparently he's big over in America), says that NH is about rejecting force as a training tool. I don't follow Parelli because it's becoming very commercial, but I do follow the basics.

    Parelli sure as hell ain't the founder of NH. And just a point of interest, but I've heard from some VERY reliable sources that Parelli isn't always as 'force free' as he'd like the public to believe.

    As for the ruined horse...even after we got his back fixed, he still bucked because he was expecting to get hit. Yes, it is natural instinct for the horse to be checked for pain, but no-one here, even the instructors, thought to check. Here in Australia, very little is known about chiropractors and their work. Since then I have made every effort to check for pain and to learn about it, but I was young and knew little.
    I would like to add that the horse in question is going very well. Most would have sold him on, but he has potential and we kept him to help correct him. He's 15hh and has jumped 4'9!

    That's good that your horse is doing well. However, I don't think 'check for pain' is a chiro thing, it's more of a general 'good horsepeople' thing. I'm not blaming you as you were young, but I do think that you may not have had the best representation of mainstream horsemanship.
    I'd just like to make the point that none of us on here are horse abusers, horse beaters etc... Yes, I have had a few heafty 'conversations' between me, the horse and a dressage whip, but those were all for a specific reason. It wasn't because I lost my temper and wanted to beat the horse, it was because the horse said 'make me' and I said 'okay'. The horse knew the rules ("I will not try and kill the human"), the horse knew how to get out of that situation ("I will stop trying to run the human over when leading"), and it was done out of flat out disrespect.

    Like all training, it was as little force as possible, but it was as much as necessary.

    It's also important to understand what's going on inside your horse's head. You need to know when they're scared, when they're in pain, when they are confused and when they are being disrespectful. Only ONE of those situations could ever warrant flat out hitting a horse.

    A horse may get a light touch with a dressage whip if he's confused about going forward, but that's not force so much as a strong poke to get their attention. A 'yes, you're supposed to go forward' reminder.
         
        07-08-2009, 10:20 PM
      #25
    Started
    If Pat used any kind of force with his horses, they wouldn't act the way they do around him, especially his mare Magic. Magic is a very, very challenging, complicated, sensitve horse who would not even think to coming to Pat if he used force, and that goes for every one of his horses. So whoever this "very reliable source" is, they are full of bull if you ask me. If you stand back and watch and read Pat's horses, they'll tell you everything you need to know about the relationship.
         
        07-09-2009, 08:59 AM
      #26
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Spirithorse    
    If Pat used any kind of force with his horses, they wouldn't act the way they do around him, especially his mare Magic. Magic is a very, very challenging, complicated, sensitve horse who would not even think to coming to Pat if he used force, and that goes for every one of his horses. So whoever this "very reliable source" is, they are full of bull if you ask me. If you stand back and watch and read Pat's horses, they'll tell you everything you need to know about the relationship.
    Are you around those horses 24/7? How can you possibly know what he does every minute of every day with every one of his horses?
         
        07-09-2009, 09:20 AM
      #27
    Weanling
    I am completely with Misfit on this one.

    Yes, people start out as predators to horses, however, this is a barrier that is crossed, usually very early on in a horses life.

    I have never seen disciplinary hitting used correctly ruin a horse. I have watched a CA clinic where he was repeatedly saying "whack him with that stick, whack him harder".

    I recently got a horse in for training, a 3 yr old that has never had any experience with a herd and walked all over her owner. In fact, she has even run over her owner. When she got to my house, you better believe that I would do whatever I had to in order to defend my space. After getting some herd manners from my herd (and yes, they did use force when a simple pinning of the ears didn't work) her overall energy changed because she didn't have that stress of being in charge any more. Horses don't like to be the one in charge, but a horse does require others to prove that they are responsible enough for the position.

    On the other end of the spectrum, I have also worked with horses that were feral and had not broken that prey - predator barrier yet. Yes, if I ran after that horse kicking and screaming, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have made much progress. Patience, concentration, and persistence with a quiet energy is the beginning of getting through to these guys. Once that barrier is broken, then it switches from "ok, you are not a predator, but a member of the herd" to "just where in this herd do you stand, above me or below me?" The human has to be completely adaptable depending on what horse they are working with and where that horse is currently standing in the equation.

    So no, hitting a horse to defend your personal well being will not ruin a horse, hitting a horse without meaning can, but if you've ever gotten a full blown kick from a horse, then you know they can endure some serious pain, much more than a slap from my hand could ever deliver, that is just more "hurt feelings".

    As far as Parelli, I know some VERY RELIABLE sources on that subject. So I will just bow out and go with what I was told, "you can't show them how to fix what is wrong until they can see enough to realize it". I will say I would never encourage anyone to go in that direction.
         
        07-09-2009, 11:09 AM
      #28
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Spirithorse    
    If Pat used any kind of force with his horses, they wouldn't act the way they do around him, especially his mare Magic. Magic is a very, very challenging, complicated, sensitve horse who would not even think to coming to Pat if he used force, and that goes for every one of his horses. So whoever this "very reliable source" is, they are full of bull if you ask me. If you stand back and watch and read Pat's horses, they'll tell you everything you need to know about the relationship.
    How do you explain people who smack their horses, who have GREAT relationships with their horses?

    I agree with goldilockz here. How can you be so sure what Pat's horses are like, or what happens behind the scenes?
         
        07-09-2009, 11:11 AM
      #29
    Green Broke
    ^^ He he. 'Behind the Scenes" Would be a great 'Parelli basher' wouldn't it?
         
        07-09-2009, 11:48 AM
      #30
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FlitterBug    
    I am completely with Misfit on this one.

    Yes, people start out as predators to horses, however, this is a barrier that is crossed, usually very early on in a horses life.

    I have never seen disciplinary hitting used correctly ruin a horse. I have watched a CA clinic where he was repeatedly saying "whack him with that stick, whack him harder".

    I recently got a horse in for training, a 3 yr old that has never had any experience with a herd and walked all over her owner. In fact, she has even run over her owner. When she got to my house, you better believe that I would do whatever I had to in order to defend my space. After getting some herd manners from my herd (and yes, they did use force when a simple pinning of the ears didn't work) her overall energy changed because she didn't have that stress of being in charge any more. Horses don't like to be the one in charge, but a horse does require others to prove that they are responsible enough for the position.

    On the other end of the spectrum, I have also worked with horses that were feral and had not broken that prey - predator barrier yet. Yes, if I ran after that horse kicking and screaming, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't have made much progress. Patience, concentration, and persistence with a quiet energy is the beginning of getting through to these guys. Once that barrier is broken, then it switches from "ok, you are not a predator, but a member of the herd" to "just where in this herd do you stand, above me or below me?" The human has to be completely adaptable depending on what horse they are working with and where that horse is currently standing in the equation.

    So no, hitting a horse to defend your personal well being will not ruin a horse, hitting a horse without meaning can, but if you've ever gotten a full blown kick from a horse, then you know they can endure some serious pain, much more than a slap from my hand could ever deliver, that is just more "hurt feelings".

    As far as Parelli, I know some VERY RELIABLE sources on that subject. So I will just bow out and go with what I was told, "you can't show them how to fix what is wrong until they can see enough to realize it". I will say I would never encourage anyone to go in that direction.
    VERY well said, Flitterbug! I agree 100%!

    I do give my horse a smack if he invades my space. There is always a warning before the smack, the horse always understands why he got smacked. I think I have a good relationship with him, especially for the few weeks I've owned and worked with him. He comes right up to me in the pasture, I can enter the stall when he's laying down and "bond" with him in that position, he follows me around at liberty in the arena. We can do grooming and showmanship class exercises/patterns tackless. He accepts treats by hand politely and happily, without being "nosey" or pushy. I can walk into his paddock with a bucket of grain and cross the paddock without being mown over. Yes, I do smack if he needs it, but he doesn't fear me in the least, and he knows where the line in the sand is. Does he "love" me? I don't know, but I do know that he trusts and respects me in most situations.
         

    Thread Tools



    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:09 AM.


    Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0